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Dinarzad last won the day on February 19

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  1. It absolutely is the topic at hand. You can't just ignore those other systems, that have the EXACT same problems as the system you are focused on when suggesting it. You need to justify and explain why this one system is different and needs to be removed entirely compared to those other ones. Particularly when Chemistry is not exclusive to Science and Botany can be just as broken to the point it was recently nerfed down. If all the things about Telescience you listed are problems, then why is it NOT problems over there, why has nobody ever suggested we delete those systems but you are suggesting we delete this one? What makes it a special case? That's the point of it. It's a counter. You can't exactly do anything against flashbangs as a Blob either, or EMPs as an IPC, Cyborg or AI, or do much about thermite and tossing in a bomb into the satellite. These things exist, you're not supposed to be omni-powerful with no chance of failure. And, again, that's why the proposed idea of a "Jammer" exists solves this very problem of yours, so it is no longer a problem. So it doesn't need to be removed because the problem is now solved, no? It's knowledge that anyone is capable of learning by game experience. Is it cheesey to know the exact same information about mining ruins? Cuz I can tell you exactly where to get a suspicious toolbox with free combat gloves on the mining asteroid, or where ruins tend to be at (Which chould include scarab eggs, so free holoparasite) That information is inevitable because them ore someone plays the more they are going to memorize and learn this kind of stuff. As for /tg/, as people are so fond of reiterating, we are NOT /tg/ and we have the people willing to put in the tools to prevent all the issues you just brought up, but the idea is being instantly shot down for what reason exactly?
  2. See, but you can't have it both ways. We can't say "Telescience has no non-antag uses!" And then immediately follow up with "The non-antag uses make antag life hell." It either has them or it doesn't have them, that is a binary state. Telescience, as Jazz has said far better then I could, has legitimate uses, mostly body retrieval. And as for making antag life hell, there's really only the antag to blame for that. Because without suit sensors to get a coordinate to shoot for, you can't teleport anything back, so if you forgot or neglected to remove suit sensors, well... Even without a teleportation device the paramedic or pod pilot can easily go retrieve that body. So that's kind of a wash either way, and is still on the antag for not turning off the sensors. Secondly, I don't think it's entirely fair to say "Remove Telescience cuz it's OP" as some others have. Because if we're gonna talk about 'no counter' antagonist fuckery (Even though in my years of playing on paradise I have never once seen it happen.) then we also have to talk about CHEMISTRY. The nature of "Hellmixes" and other meme chems that cause near instant death with a single click have been the source of more salt then telescience ever has, but we don't see anyone really up in arms are railing to get Chemistry removed. It's just a facet of the game that we have all adapted to, and changes have been made to mitigate it's OP nature. Why should Tele-sci be any different? Why is it when another system is OP we just make adjustments, but when Tele-sci is questionably OP, we just go to delete it outright without even a token attempt at a balancing pass first? Why? And lastly, the counter to Telescience is pretty easy. Move. Turn off suit sensors or just move around and the guy is never going to get a lock on you, especially since the crew monitor console now updates every 5 to 10 seconds these days instead of it's early more frequent refresh rate. In terms of countering theft, I see no reason why just adding a "Jammer" item should be so outlandish, we've done more intensive additions and reworks to curb chemistry or botany, but again, nobody is screaming to remove those systems. If it comes to dropping off bombs, well, it's against server rules to do that unless you have hijack and at that point the bomb was gonna happen either way. Also bear in mind the requirements to build Telescience. It's easy to put together but to get telescience not horribly limited for range, you need bluespace crystals, which means either mining comes through or xenobio pulls through. And if you're relying on bluespace slimes you are rolling dice to see how fast it happens. It;s not HARD but this isn't EXACTLY a "No effort required" project, particularly if you ARE going to antag with it since you need to keep it secret or the AI is just gonna blab about it and turn off the APC. I am open to the idea of nerfing it somehow, but the idea of removing it entirely for these reasons is, to me, entirely silly and borderline hypocritical in some ways.
  3. I've long wanted an "Advanced pAI" item, something that takes high research an more expensive materials, but is actually useful to have around, beyond simply shrieking over general chatter anyway. It's data jack cable instead becoming a wireless transmitter, It's medical suite giving far more information, like a portable body scanner or Health Analyzer with the augment, etc. The concept behind a pAI is great. Be someone's personal Cortana an be more or less a sentient smartphone. The execution of them, leaving so limited, makes them of dubious value beyond just someone to talk to. An Advanced shell/pAI Upgrade can be locked behind much more stringent requirements to balance out the additional utility it provides, since not everyone is liable to get one.
  4. That changes absolutely nothing. Okay. cool. SR is easy to get and defibs have more time to work with. Neat. That does nothing to impact how utterly trashed a body can be an the time needed to restore it. The other thing a LOT of people keep missing is, traitor isn't the only game mode. You won't have time in a lot of circumstances to do the things you're asking medical to do, I will openly DARE medical players to, on Blob/Wiz/Nukie rounds, don't use the cloner a single time. Not once. Do it all manually, and let me fucking know how much of a corpse pile up you have backing up. You'll have doctors not even bothering with revival as they're too focused on dealing with the influx of people fighting the blob or will have to focus entirely on reviving tons of corpses manually that healing the living will be pushed to the wayside. This isn't a good thing. I know a lot of people want death more impactful, but in Blob style rounds getting the entire crew involved in the fight is the ideal and expected strategy, it's not like valid hunting a changeling in maintenance where they just shouldn't have been involved. Everyone likes to say how brain-dead easy and quick the cloner is, but in the gif in this very thread, look at that corpse pile up. That shit isn't gonna go any better if you remove cloning, if anything it'll get worse. Cloning is "Fast and easy" according to people, so how well do you imagine it'll go when you have to SR an Defib every single corpse, blood transfusion a LOT of them from internal bleeding left unchecked, repair any broken bones (Potentially all of them if the body is trashed enough or was spaced long enough.) and all done on a single corpse before moving on to the next body. And that assumes Surgery isn't having to tend to LIVING patients in the mean time and can focus solely on those dead/newly revived people to fix up. It'll be a complete fucking nightmare the moment anything even slightly resembling a crisis rears it's head. The "Delete cloner/make it not roundstart" idea continues to be one of the worst possible suggests to ever grace this forum. It accounts for NONE of the reasons it exists and calls for removal of a core system without any thought for the literal years of development that has gone on around that system. What you're asking for is the equivalent of "Just rework Atmos." So much game design has gone on with the idea of cloning existing you're asking for an effective rework and re-balance of basically the entire game. Every traitor item, wizard spell and more were all balanced with the idea of cloning existing, of death being relatively quick and simple to reverse. This is beyond just changing medical this can, will and MUST change **EVERYTHING** or else it'll be half assed and more broken then anything. Baystation removed cloning and it still split the server down the middle, and this is a high RP server, full of people with the mindset of making death spooky scary and a big dramatic RP moment. Paradise is NOT High RP, we're full of people who want to play a 'game' as much as we have people who want some lighter forms of roleplay. This idea is dead in it's cradle, it solves nothing, breaks everything and is in general woefully unaware of it's own glaring flaws given I have never once seen them properly addressed
  5. The original idea put forth had a mechanical benefit, but it had to be removed before being merged as a PR.
  6. Solves nothing, causes even more problems and is a scapegoat people like to lean on for what they deem "Not skilled gameplay" as if we were some kinda Dark Souls experience. It's fine. It was fine. It will continue to BE fine. Cloning as a system continues to be used in almost every single codebase that SS13 has, with Baystation having removed it relatively recently, and even for a High RP station it pissed a lot of people off. So unless y'all are aiming to get in on the HIGH RP Perma-death action, maybe look at other codebases an put more thought into why the system exists as a whole an find ways to improve medical that don't involve pointlessly gutting entire systems because some people can't stand not getting specifically colored text for 10 seconds at the end of a round. I was pretty sure games were meant to be fun, but sure, being dead for 5-10 minutes or more as every single corpse that doesn't die in medical has to be given SR an gone through that whole long proceadure, will be ever so fun. I mean it's so fun NOW to be stuck in crit, right?
  7. It won't though. Like I'm not saying that I agree with the changes, at all. But that's just being a little disingenuous about the state of it, we both know that's not an accurate metaphor or equivalence at all, that there ARE systems at play and that doctors ARE doing those systems. They may not be systems we like, an the cloner will definitely be used more now, but to say medbay may as well be a conveyor to an from the cloner is just willfully misrepresenting the issue. Because I guess smaller injuries, surgery for things like broken bones, internal bleeding and limb reatattchment and the entire crit state just don't exist anymore, Paramedics don't exist and what is even that SR thing. Like. Yes. The Cloner will be used more, too much in the eyes of many, it's less realistic, etc. But god damn, y'all act like reviving dead people was your ONLY job and that with this change, all non-dead people will cease to exist, in a perpetuial state of being not quite dead, but also dead, a Schrodinger's Hellscape will overcome us all an doom will fall onto our station as Nar-sie nibbles on our meaty bits. Yes. The system's got some serious problems. But let's stop playing pretend that dead people being revived was the ONLY thing Medical did and that removing defibs suddenly DELETED those other non-dead players. It's exaggeration beyond the point of being worthwhile to the discussion. It adds nothing but noise at this, it just muddies the issue on both sides and makes it actively harder to debate and discuss. The strong emotional response has been noted, but now we need more then an emotional response, now we need more depth and criticism to be had about it.
  8. I agree. That's why my response on the neuro kits was "If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary." If Medical vendors already have mannitol pills in them, I am unsure why those kits are necessary.
  9. https://i.imgur.com/KnNrnzL.png The above is the image Fox put up on the PR in question of his medivend changes. I felt it was worth copying over here for people that may not check the git themselves all that much, and because a few things I wanna note about the tweaks made, an it's easier to have al ink here for reference then to ask people to go to the PR. Healing/Burn patches: Nice to have, though with the sleepers giving saline-glucose and the medical vendor giving saline-glucose, unsure how needed it is. But still nice. *thumbs up Diphenhydramine Bottle: Nice to have but not wholly sure how necessary it is, I personally don't see Histamine come up that much, but I know Fox mentioned that some chemicals were gonna be a lot more scary in the new system, like Sarin. So perhaps Histamine is one of those, but just putting it out there I don't run into it much. Salicylic Acid Bottle: Nice to have. Potassium Iodide Bottle: Not sure Radiation is a common enough occurance to need to be default in the medi-vend, but it's a brain dead chem recipe as it is an a chemist can make one in a couple seconds, so I suppose just having it by default won't change much. Saline-Glucose bottle: Not sure if needed, given sleepers produce the stuff. Though, I guess since it can be used to treat the first stages of shock, having a few bottles to carry around won't be remiss. Not sure if we need 5 though, 3 per medi-vend should be plenty given we have a LOT of medivends. Atropine Bottle: Good to have in case there's no chem, such as low-pop rounds. Oculine Bottle: Same as Atropine, good to have in case a total lack of chemistry, given Sleepers no longer produce the stuff. Small enough in quantity you could run out though, which will still give Chem incentive to make some, just nothing they need to rush out. Calomel Pill: Given Fox's claim that chems can be a lot scarier in this new system, probably worth having. Though I for see a lot of toxin deaths the first few weeks after being merged (Calomel will rapidly fuck your day if over 20 HP) Salbutomal pills: Not sure if needed because of sleepers, could just as easily put in some oxy-dep first aid kids into medical storage. Might lighten the load on them edivend, as the list of things it has is now pretty big. Mannitol Pills: Probably necessary given Brain damage during critical condition is now a thing and is what dictates death. Mutadone pills: I don't think this is necessary to have on hand in the medical vendor, unless it plays a new role in the system that I have overlooked somewhere. Now to address some of the other changes: If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary. No real opinion on this. Having more use to Fix-O-Vein is nice, and it's something you can't run out of (I don't think it took a use of a trauma kit to heal an organ though.) Not really any major medical changes here though, just swapping one tool for another. Could make ghetto surgery harder, as you could Trauma Kits here an there in maint. This is a little more where I have problems. Plasmemes have precious little going for them as it is (Aside a dope as fuck style.) and slimes having no organs and no breathing is a big deal. They were originally supposed to not have bones either, an that's already been compromised on, I'd really prefer not pulling back even more on that. Their blood is water, not because they have 'blood' like a circulatory system, but because they're made of slime, a gelatinous liquid substance. The 'skin' is just like a membrane holding the stuff inside. (And also for mechanical reasons.) A grander scale rework of Diona is probably in the cards, yes, but until then, removing their no breathe ability I'm sketchy on, not without also pulling back on how much slowdown they suffer at least. That seems like sometihng that should happen WITH a diona rework, and not in this particular system overhaul, since there's grander balance concerns to be had. Ultiamtely though, this stumbling point here is probably why this crit system is going to have a lot of issues. It's a goon-based system, and on Goon humans are the only species you can reliably play as. This system has a lot of depth, could be very nice IF we were an all-human kind of server, but we're not. And the only solutions are to either snowflake the other species real hard to make it work/ignore the system; to dramatically alter those species just to fit this system in, and like Fox said, conjure up compensating buffs/changes, which isn't always easy; or to leave both of them alone.
  10. Validhunting is a problem with Blues, but I don't think that's a reason to deny the featurei n question. However, the validhunt problem is real, but the thing is, in my mind anyway, the Blueshield is a 30 karma role. Magistrate is 45 Karma, and it costs that much because it is a "Trusted" role. It's something you don't just give to randos because they'll abuse it, and it is held to a higher standard then other jobs, it's easy to get a ding dong bannu out of Magistrate if you abuse it's authority. But it's authority/power you are given out of trust since you got enough karma for it, you demonstrated you understand how Paradise works a little bit, the dos and don'ts. Blueshield, IMO, should be similar. They can be trusted with things like Krav Maga or what have you, because it's a 30 karma role, you're being given a measure of trust that you won't abuse it. And if you do, then the job-bans will come swift and hard, harder then other jobs. A blue has no reason to not be at the bridge or at a Head of Staff's side, if you are wandering maint on your own, and are not actively trying to find the captain's corpse to recover and take to medical, then you abused that trust you were given, full stop, and it can and should be rescinded via job ban.
  11. Here is my problem with the suggestion of a permanent debuff or detriment to people who are cloned though. The newbie doctor who does that? Fired. Immediately. Now, naturally, you're thinking "But they did nothing against any law, they'd never get fired for that." And IDEALLY that would hold very true, but as Science department has taught me, people can frequently be horrendous to new players or people new to Science, because they're new and don't know things like how to be extremely efficient. I have seen and experienced being thrown off the RnD console for not having it done by 30 minutes into a round. I was actively working on it, I was just bad. I spent the rest of the round without a job, cuz nobody else wanted me after that. I have seen particularly rude RD's fire scientists outright for "Slacking off. And this is just RnD, this is something that has no permanent detriment to the server if it isn't done at the 15 minute mark, it can very easily be rectified. And yet, the moment you choose an inefficient option, you are are absolutely dead to some people. To suggest cloning give people permanent downsides, I can promise you with utter certainty, you will see CMO's scream and fire new doctors who don't know any better, or the cloned person themselves will scream at them and potentially get security to try and arrest them for permanently injuring them (And depending on if that sec team is competent or not, they may actually do it.) We wanna nerf cloning, fine. I disagree with it, but I am open to the notion. But permanent debuffs and long term affects will only serve as a newbie trap, they'll do it not really knowing better and get royally reamed for it, if not outright fired or brigged and it will skew their perception of the department from then on. It would effectively be punishing OTHER players, for someone being new and that's a recipe to set someone up to be a scapegoat/lynch target for the greytide. I just REALLY want to address that point, and since @necaladun wants this to remain on topic, A new poll/thread should be opened to continue the conversation further or we'll just have to stop here.
  12. A casual reminder to people that want to obliterate cloning: You are not the only one who plays the game and the medical department. Not everyone is a 7 year veteran of Space 'Nam where you did 32 consecutive duties in a medical tent patching people back together with staples and tomato juice as a blood substitute. New people play the game. People new to the medical department play the game. Screwing new people over side ways is not fun, ensures nobody ever wants to learn/play the department, and helps ensure low-pop rounds are a god awful misery festival. An example of this is Atmospherics. Barely anyone knows how that system works beyond a very very basic level of understanding, and so you barely see anyone play it. They take the job slot to be a psuedo-engineer, but do nothing it Atmos itself. Because learning that system is painful and the consequences can be terrifying. (Leaking toxic gases, etc.) I get why you guys want to destroy Cloning forever and make it atrocious. But you are looking at it from the eyes and perspectives of a long term veteran player who already knows all the mechanics and gets bored when not challenged or given a meatier task to handle, has memorized the procedures, knows what chems do what, what is the more efficient way to make those chems/surgery order and what makes species different from each other, like why Diona all have different names for their organs (Even though they are functionally identical to human organs) or that Vox/Slimes need special kinds of treatment. You are not accounting for the new doctor who has no idea what in the ever loving fuck is going on around him, why the things he is doing doesn't work and what to do if the zappy paddles don't work. Every department has simple tasks that even new players can do. Engineers can wire up solars, etc. And as a reminder: You can get yelled out of the Science department just for not being hyper efficient on doing RnD. I have seen people fired for not having it done fast enough by particularly grouchy RDs, something very easily and quickly fixed with no long term damaging effects (No damage effects at all really, just a lack of very desirable buffs.) And now you're suggesting that cloning, the go to option for new doctors, leave permanent round-lasting effects of debuffs on people. you can and will see doctors screamed at for cloning people and depending on the CMO fired outright for daring to not know things. You must account for the fact that players that are not as skilled and well-versed as you can play the exact same jobs, an account for how badly these systems WILL fuck them up. SS13 is not new player friendly, there's always going to be some rough learning processes to every system, but stacking the deck against them isn't cool either.
  13. I'm not opposed to the idea. It'd be kinda strong, might upend balance a little bit, but I mean... It's also fuckin cool, an that's what matters most, so.
  14. Tell you what. Let's do a test. Do 1 day where Defibs/SR isn't available, an then you tell me how super duper fast cloning is and how it has no problems what so ever. Especially when it gets bombed. You also did nothing to even slightly address any point my post brought up whatsoever, in favor of a massive passive-aggressive salt pit, which is super helpful and absolutely benefits a discussion and will in no way sabotage feedback at all and is SUPER professional coming from an administrator. But yeah. You're right. Everyone else is the problem. TG, Bay, Goon, every other major codebase? Fools. Foolish fools who are foolishly believing their own foolishness as they seem to all agree a mechanic works across High, Medium and Low RP spectrums. They're all just to dumb to see the way, clearly, it could in no way be the minority opinion is wrong. Y'all are gonna do what you want anyway, feedback or otherwise, an apparently get you meme'd on if you disagree, so just like... do whatever, man. I'm done puttin' in effort, lemme know when you're done ruining the medical department though.
  15. I'm going to echo what I said before in response to the talks about Cloning. Cloning is not the issue, has never been the issue and will continue to not be the issue. cloning exists on TG, on Bay and Goon, it exists in almost every single codebase out there, but you think, for some reason, it's magically a problem on this one single codebase. Cloning has clear and obvious downsides. That being, it is easily overwhelmed and tampered with. It works on one person at a time, when it was the only method of revival it very easily formed a queue. The problem is that over the years we've added more and more alternatives to cloning, so those downsides are now null. You can Defib most people, clone them when that fails or if it's too inconvenient and SR things that can't be cloned at all, or just if you want a challenge mode, I guess. The downsides of cloning were predicated on it being the primary source of revival, the more alternative methods of unkilling someone you make, the more you make cloning into a tool that can be used selectively when convenient, which is WHY so many doctors take the 'just clone them' mindset these days. Because these days it's almost always not in use so it's a massive time saver. When you had conga lines of corpses in waiting, it was a lot more imperative to keep someone from dying at all, lest they be potentially dead for several minutes before their turn came up. Times have changed. Something has to change to match it. Either Cloning needs a TOTAL overhaul, a complete remake, which in a personal opinion would be absolutely silly, given NO OTHER MAJOR CODEBASE agrees with that idea. (That sorta tells me this is a personal problem and not a problem with the mechanic as it remains, to this day, a baseline feature in all the major codebases. If Goon, TG and Bay can all agree on something, despite how disparate they all are, that carries some major weight.) OR. The other forms of revival need to be looked at, mostly the defib units. SR could do with a recipe tweak, but it's niche in being primarily targeted at Vox/Slimes is fine pretty much as is. Defib units should not be able to revive a person who died ages ago, that's not how they work. They jump start a heart that has stopped within a very short time frame, they do not magically make a long cold body start living again. The body is already dead, the brain has died from lack of oxygen. No amount of electrical impulses will change that the brain has suffocated. Cloning might be easy if you don't attempt anything like Hypercloning, but it's straight forward and has clear downsides. A new doctor can pick up the role and, if nothing else, understand cloning. That's not a bad thing, not everyone in medical is gonna be a 16 year Space 'Nam veteran. The basics of the department should probably be relatively easy to grasp in short order. You can whack at it if you really, really want to, but I am telling you now, the more tedious and obnoxious you make death on the doctors themselves, the more you're gonna see people give up half way through when they get tired of handling it, especially in crisis situations where people are dying constantly. It's gonna get real fun real fast having to deal with hyper lethal war ops or blobs when you're gonna be dead for the next 5 minutes, along with a hefty chunk of crew/the entire sec team, as you're rebuilt like the bionic man, just so you can do it again. As for the PR feedback itself: I don't think this fits Paradise. Goon crit is a system that is predicated on everyone being human, because on goon there's no alien races like we have and are known for. The fact we have to make snowflake exceptions to it so that it won't utterly break the system is a telling point of that. I feel that we need to pick ONE system overhaul an focus on that. We can't do both an SR/Revivability overhaul and a crit overhaul at the same time, that's too many major systems changes at once. If one of these gets merged, the other definitely shouldn't until we see how things shake up.