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Dinarzad last won the day on February 19

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  1. I don't think becoming combat-capable is necessary (Or even desirable) but the modules they're supplied with at current are dubiously useful at best. I mean, their 'host bioscan' module tells you even less then an un-upgraded health analyzer or even just a medical chip inserted into a PDA. That's... sort of depressing. It just sort of says "Hey. There's damage here" and their body temperature and that's genuinely about it. No read out of what limb is damage like analyzers, nothing. pAI becoming capable of attacking or defending someone was never my intent to imply. What I would like pAI to supply is information. Currently the information they can provide to people is questionably useful, Records access is rarely needed except for Security, and they don't look at it half the time either. The one use there would be helping over-burdened Wardens with managing Security Records, but they cannot write Records, only read them. (To prevent ghostly griefing, which is understandable, but drastically impairs usefulness.) The atmos analyzer is never needed, the people who need to worry about atmospherics have far better tools to handle it then you do, and the analyzer tool you have is incapable of scanning anomalies, so just grabbing a basic one available literally everywhere on station, is still a better option then you. I would prefer pAI become more utility or information tools, something akin to an SS13 equivalent to a Smartphone. And I would honestly sacrifice the "Living Death alarm" aspect if that helped achieve it, I don't feel that's exactly interesting gameplay for anyone, the host, the pAI or the antag being foiled. I would much rather pAI can hear the radio, but be unable to speak on it, if it meant giving them some TLC in the terms of more impactful modules.
  2. Given all the other ghost roles we have added into Paradise since pAI's, them being intentionally designed in such a manner seems increasingly more questionable, when comparatively, you can spawn as an ash walker and literally hunt miners in your territory or golems, or plant people or any number of roles that not only provide things to do, tangible things with tangible gameplay and rewards, but still enable you to roleplay. You can get the same experience as a pAI as a sentient creature (A pretty common event roll.) Except the sentient creature could also be something on the level of Sergeant Araneus and be capable of doing things beyond talk. I understand Paradise is not a democracy, this has been established frequently enough. But I also hope you'll understand that this response gets increasingly harder to take seriously and harder to swallow as time goes on and more and more ghost roles are added that blow anything a pAI can do out of the water. Particularly when there's only one or two on station to start with and almost nobody bothers to actually print out more.
  3. A holoparasite is a sub-class of Guardian. A guardian is not Class S, a Holoparasite is. All Holoparasites are guardians, but not all Guardians are holoparasites. There are non-Syndicate ways of obtaining Guardians, namely mining. Because of this they are not contraband. Contraband items are items used by the Syndicate, the arch-rival of Nanotrasen, items that flag people as agents of the Syndicate, it's why being caught with those items gets you a flogging. This would be like saying all guns = contraband Kill/Arrest on sight, because SOME guns are contraband and they're all "Guns" as a category so they must be illegal. There is more nuance then is being given here. This is arguing the literal letter of the law and not the spirit of it, your job as Security is to protect the station, protect it's crew, not to steal their toys or "Well it says a holoparasite is illegal but not holoparasiteS so two is fine one is illegal."
  4. Check the attitude at the door, please, don't put words in my mouth to make me sound like a tantruming child so that you can argue against non-existent points. 1: New Crit is not OP. I never said it was, I would like for you to quote me the exact line where I said the words "This system is OP pls bufs." What I did say was you are objectively wrong in IPCs surviving longer and better in Old Crit then new. This is not only different, but is something not addressed, so let me tackle it here. "IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with." Saline-Glucose is incredibly common arounn the station, you get them out of Syndicakes. You can have Sal-Glu and Epi (emergency medipen) on your person at all times, that solves two or three stages of Shock right there, so unless you literally screw around so long in crit that you go into a cardiac arrest and require a defibrillator, you can postpone your state for incredible amounts of time with extreme ease. Unless an antag is sitting directly on you and killing you, you have ample time to do emergency care, if you DO have an antag sitting on you, then it doesn't really matter if you're on old crit or new, you're very dead. Even still you can sit in crit and be whapped on for such lengths of time as to have seucrity arrive and rescue you, I have not only seen this, I have done this and had it done to me. Your claim is wrong. The math doesn't support it. It just doesn't. I claimed you were putting a spin on things to prove a point, and this is exactly what I meant. You glanced over all the perks of new crit to make things sound better then they are. Yes. If a crew dies it can take a bit to repair them an get them back on their feet. Except that literally half of the things on your list are handled via instantly applied chemicals which drastically cuts down on recovery time, the only things absolutely requiring surgery would be broken bones, internal bleeding and dead organs. Damaged organs can sometimes be faster via surgery, but Mito is still an option if it's a particularly heavy moment and you cannot spare an operating room. Missing limbs more often then not, get shipped to robotics and the surgery to put them on is like... 2 steps. It's really not a big deal. You ever tried to fix a dead IPC? Particularly one killed by an EMP? Because they don't just die, they super-die. Every single limb and organ takes damage, every single part of them needs surgical repair because the damage is almost always over the threshold at which they suffer 'Broken robot bones' and can no longer be repaired externally. And unlike carbon crew, IPCs can't just be slapped on the face with a synthflesh patch or two an call it a done day for the external injuries you have to go into surgery for every. Individual. Limb. Ask anyone who has played robotics for any length of time, the surgeries are not any harder then for human crew, but they sure do take a lot of time. Additionally if someone is super fucked, you can clone them. Unless they are a slime or a vox they can be cloned. Even plasmas can be cloned if you know what you're doing, though I suppose in fairness, most don't. IPC, whether they have -800 damage or not, there's nothing to do but sit there and surgically mend every single limb and patch all the myriad of dents an dings. Even more additionally, the claim was never New Crit was OP, but that you were ignoring the point, and the point was how long you can survive in it. This is, in essence, a buff to someone's "Effective HP" they essentially have more then they had before, because now you can survive in the state for far longer then before, where IPC are in the same state they were. This is a buff to any new-crit races, and it;s why there's been talk of slimes and IPC again in the first place. Just because you keep adding "Well the only..." to a pro or a con doesn't matter. The amount of pros or cons literally doesn't ever matter, it is what those pros and cons are that matters, the merits of each. If we gave plasmamen 7 down sides and gave them the "only" perk of being able to fart nuclear bombs that killed all antags on all Z-levels, I'd venture to guess that most people would say they were crazy OP whether or not they had only a single upside or not. 2: I'm making it out that way, because it is that way. Any race operating on New Crit got a buff to effective HP, while IPC not only did not, but they're for some reason operating on blood that you can get from 2 whole places on station. Robotics, or Cargo. You could get some from chemistry, but why Chemistry would have enough oil on hand to fix 'blood loss' for an IPC when it isn;t medical's job and oil is a necessary component in a lot of meds? Which it is essentially blood loss, by the by so you can add "Blood loss" to things IPC are no longer 'immune' as it will kill them very dead if not handled. The "Ease of repair" part of IPCs keeps fading more and more and yet, none of the "easy to break" part ever does. This seems just a touch silly to me and is not something to be glossed over. 3: I literally, at no point in this thread or on Github, said IPC should get space immunity. In fact, I can link you my exact reply on the git where I believe I said the words "I don't think IPC should get or need the ability to have immunity to space." At no point in my reply was it mentioned. What I did mention was corrections to a myriad of highly biased argument points, and that they were highly biased argument points, because they were either ignoring key highlights of those features or were being very clearly spun in a manner that suited the narrative, rather then just being talked about objectively.
  5. The flash happens but the eye damage does not. This is also true for Slimes, as they do not possess organs other then their core, so though the flash occurs, they have no eye organ that can be damaged and are essentially immune to welders in that way. This is a hell of a state to say "The only problems they have are" to. 50% more brute/burn damage, the most common forms of death on the station, is nothing to scoff at, fatal EMPs are a means of instant death surpassing Metal Gear Plant-B-gone and bug spray because, unlike those 2 chemicals, EMP's can occur through walls. It's why for a very long time IPCs in science were horrified to hear someone was fiddling with the Experimentor. Oh and they still have to deal with "blood" an "broken bones". Yes, they do still deal with that because of that cranked up brute/burn damage it is exceptionally easy to damage their limbs to a point they'll require Robotics surgery to repair and the downsides are EXTREMELY close if not identical to have a broken bone. They are broken bones in all but name. You also glanced over the myriad of other cons, like unable to benefit from healing chemicals or Genetics powers, you mentioned them very off-handedly within the pros section, they're not minor downsides, they're very real ones and it comes across as though you're trying to slip them under the radar or discount them, in addition to listing things that are not really perks as perks. "Recharge / Hunger from any APC." This is not a perk. This is a neutral side-grade to the omnipotent power that is chicken soup/hot chocolate, being able to easily replenish hunger from APCs is kind of moot when you can get a small can in your bag that takes you from starving to stuffed in about 5 clicks. Additionally, doing it from an APC drains the power, you can be a living power sink to some very vital areas if you're not careful. You can regen from a cyborg recharge unit, but there are not many of those and it's a long walk. Hot Drink vendors are flippin' everywhere, there's at least 1 in every single department. "Brain located in their torso, so taking off their head merely blinds / deafens them, which can easily be re-fitted back on." Is again, not a perk, but a side-grade. 3 toolboxes to the area that's hardest to miss and you have some major problems. They survive decapitation, sure, but given that decapitation is hilariously easy to achieve, it really damn well better be. "IPCs actually survive longer and better with the old crit system compared to the new crit that other people have to deal with." This is an objectively false statement. New Crit enables people to survive in a critical state for laughable amounts of time, to the point some people rack up well over 400 points of damage before finally dying. What you are referring to is ease of revival not the point mentioned about New Crit (Which explicitly stated that people survive longer IN CRIT. Coming back from the dead was not mentioned and it also isn't that hard, tedious, yes, hard, no.) As for this "They can survive space if they have coils/welders" is just being silly. Sure. And so could humans if you just have a buddy with perflurodecalin, and some synthflesh or one of those genetics powers that IPCs can't get an some syndi-cakes. Just because you preface major cons with "Your only downside" doesn't make those downsides any less intense. I mean if we analyzed Kidan an went "Well your only downside is not being able to wear extremely vital eyewear, I mean come on!" That wouldn't make playing Kidan any more enjoyable (And there's a reason you barely see any.) The benefits gained by IPC are nice, the Cons are also immense, downplaying that does no favors for anyone and is arguing in bad faith, but we also can't sit here an pretend like IPCs haven't gotten a nerf bat out of the blue in the form of suddenly having 'blood'.
  6. I still stand by every argument I've made thus far as to why I'm against removing this. Furthermore, I'm gonna put out there that this feels like it's "Looking for reasons" to remove a system. That bad experiences were had, so some people want it on the chopping block, that it has little to nothing to do with it being "Overpowered" in actuality. Because the facts don't add up, especially when a fix to the proposed issues was put forward and subsequently ignored. The problems proposed have been corrected and debunked several times an the legitimate ones have had a proposal put forward to fixing them, but apparently nuking this is just the only way to be sure for some reason. That doesn't seem like "Balancing" an OP system is a goal to me, that seems like it's about removing one that's made people upset because they happened to be on the bad side of it, those few rare times a month it happens. I'd respect this idea a lot more if it came across being honest with ourselves. If we wanna say "Hey, we just don't like this system, we think it's not fun. We don't think how it works is fun and that it can't be made fun in it's current form." Then I'd at least respect the honesty put forward, because that's just as valid a reason to propose something's removal as anything else. But this? Saying it's "Because it is too strong" ? This feels like we're looking for "Boogey-man" situations to emphasize how secretly OP the barely used system is and trying to use those outlier rare circumstances as justification that the entire thing is broken. Because the majority of arguments made in favor of removing this system are grounded mostly in anecdotal evidence or are assuming that a LOT of variables line up perfectly to make telescience this unstoppable god of death, and the facts simply don't match that accusation. It is factually easier, faster and simpler to do a lot of spooky antag things by hand, then it is through telescience. It is easier to dispose of bodies unless you happen to specifically be an antag scientist and telesci is already set up, and saved coordinates to space to use in just this sort of rare circumstance, which the vast majority of players do not have. It is far easier to dispose of targets with any number of science weaponry or antag specific weaponry, it is impossible to use telescience to do mass bombings unless you are, specifically An Antag Scientist with Hijack due to the nature of server rules. That is a lot of variables that have to line up for it to be worth the effort or in the case of bombings, even allowed. When it comes to blobs and rogue AI, AI do have a problem, that's true. AI also have a means to counter it via cyborgs and sabotaging APCs, but it's still true that it's a hard counter so to speak. Blobs however, unless you know the precise coordinate location of the core, dropping a bomb in, is liable to kill as much crew as it is blob, and you can't exactly drop in a max cap even then, you will not be looked at kindly icly, oocly or from administration. So we're talking precision, pin-point blob execution and that is not as easy or feasible as it sounds, not compared to just massing flashbangs, X-rays and mechs. The facts of the matter are that any proposed issues made against telescience thus far exist in multiple game systems right now, and there's not a single peep about them. I bring up Chemistry a lot in comparison to this because for every single complaint of "I could get a bomb dropped right on me and die instantly and there's nothing I could do about it." there's a dozen more complaints related to hellmixes and memechem formulas where one application of a spray bottle or one click of a syringe gun is instant death. For every complaint of telescience stealing victims from antags away, there's a dozen more accounts of Virology basically patenting immortality and distributing it to the crew/command/security. None of those departments are removed. They get changed, they get tweaked, but we never even dream of removing them, I wouldn't want them removed. Virology has the worst of it right now, but that's because a major system change is more what staff are looking for (Swapping to /tg/ virology if I recall discussions correctly.) But it still is not removed. A proposed tweak to fix the problems of stealing items easily has been made, why is that being overlooked? We've made far more sweeping changes for far less issues before but adding a single new "Jammer" item or using the no teleport flag or combination of both is a bridge too far? So I'm again going to ask, because I've never really been answered on the topic. What is the difference here? Why is it perfectly fine for those systems to have outliers where they can be potentially extremely powerful, but Telescience is just a bridge too far? What makes 1 click deaths from a spray bottle any better then 1 click deaths from a console, when they are far, far fewer in number and farther between then those other systems everyone is seemingly okay with?
  7. It absolutely is the topic at hand. You can't just ignore those other systems, that have the EXACT same problems as the system you are focused on when suggesting it. You need to justify and explain why this one system is different and needs to be removed entirely compared to those other ones. Particularly when Chemistry is not exclusive to Science and Botany can be just as broken to the point it was recently nerfed down. If all the things about Telescience you listed are problems, then why is it NOT problems over there, why has nobody ever suggested we delete those systems but you are suggesting we delete this one? What makes it a special case? That's the point of it. It's a counter. You can't exactly do anything against flashbangs as a Blob either, or EMPs as an IPC, Cyborg or AI, or do much about thermite and tossing in a bomb into the satellite. These things exist, you're not supposed to be omni-powerful with no chance of failure. And, again, that's why the proposed idea of a "Jammer" exists solves this very problem of yours, so it is no longer a problem. So it doesn't need to be removed because the problem is now solved, no? It's knowledge that anyone is capable of learning by game experience. Is it cheesey to know the exact same information about mining ruins? Cuz I can tell you exactly where to get a suspicious toolbox with free combat gloves on the mining asteroid, or where ruins tend to be at (Which chould include scarab eggs, so free holoparasite) That information is inevitable because them ore someone plays the more they are going to memorize and learn this kind of stuff. As for /tg/, as people are so fond of reiterating, we are NOT /tg/ and we have the people willing to put in the tools to prevent all the issues you just brought up, but the idea is being instantly shot down for what reason exactly?
  8. See, but you can't have it both ways. We can't say "Telescience has no non-antag uses!" And then immediately follow up with "The non-antag uses make antag life hell." It either has them or it doesn't have them, that is a binary state. Telescience, as Jazz has said far better then I could, has legitimate uses, mostly body retrieval. And as for making antag life hell, there's really only the antag to blame for that. Because without suit sensors to get a coordinate to shoot for, you can't teleport anything back, so if you forgot or neglected to remove suit sensors, well... Even without a teleportation device the paramedic or pod pilot can easily go retrieve that body. So that's kind of a wash either way, and is still on the antag for not turning off the sensors. Secondly, I don't think it's entirely fair to say "Remove Telescience cuz it's OP" as some others have. Because if we're gonna talk about 'no counter' antagonist fuckery (Even though in my years of playing on paradise I have never once seen it happen.) then we also have to talk about CHEMISTRY. The nature of "Hellmixes" and other meme chems that cause near instant death with a single click have been the source of more salt then telescience ever has, but we don't see anyone really up in arms are railing to get Chemistry removed. It's just a facet of the game that we have all adapted to, and changes have been made to mitigate it's OP nature. Why should Tele-sci be any different? Why is it when another system is OP we just make adjustments, but when Tele-sci is questionably OP, we just go to delete it outright without even a token attempt at a balancing pass first? Why? And lastly, the counter to Telescience is pretty easy. Move. Turn off suit sensors or just move around and the guy is never going to get a lock on you, especially since the crew monitor console now updates every 5 to 10 seconds these days instead of it's early more frequent refresh rate. In terms of countering theft, I see no reason why just adding a "Jammer" item should be so outlandish, we've done more intensive additions and reworks to curb chemistry or botany, but again, nobody is screaming to remove those systems. If it comes to dropping off bombs, well, it's against server rules to do that unless you have hijack and at that point the bomb was gonna happen either way. Also bear in mind the requirements to build Telescience. It's easy to put together but to get telescience not horribly limited for range, you need bluespace crystals, which means either mining comes through or xenobio pulls through. And if you're relying on bluespace slimes you are rolling dice to see how fast it happens. It;s not HARD but this isn't EXACTLY a "No effort required" project, particularly if you ARE going to antag with it since you need to keep it secret or the AI is just gonna blab about it and turn off the APC. I am open to the idea of nerfing it somehow, but the idea of removing it entirely for these reasons is, to me, entirely silly and borderline hypocritical in some ways.
  9. I've long wanted an "Advanced pAI" item, something that takes high research an more expensive materials, but is actually useful to have around, beyond simply shrieking over general chatter anyway. It's data jack cable instead becoming a wireless transmitter, It's medical suite giving far more information, like a portable body scanner or Health Analyzer with the augment, etc. The concept behind a pAI is great. Be someone's personal Cortana an be more or less a sentient smartphone. The execution of them, leaving so limited, makes them of dubious value beyond just someone to talk to. An Advanced shell/pAI Upgrade can be locked behind much more stringent requirements to balance out the additional utility it provides, since not everyone is liable to get one.
  10. That changes absolutely nothing. Okay. cool. SR is easy to get and defibs have more time to work with. Neat. That does nothing to impact how utterly trashed a body can be an the time needed to restore it. The other thing a LOT of people keep missing is, traitor isn't the only game mode. You won't have time in a lot of circumstances to do the things you're asking medical to do, I will openly DARE medical players to, on Blob/Wiz/Nukie rounds, don't use the cloner a single time. Not once. Do it all manually, and let me fucking know how much of a corpse pile up you have backing up. You'll have doctors not even bothering with revival as they're too focused on dealing with the influx of people fighting the blob or will have to focus entirely on reviving tons of corpses manually that healing the living will be pushed to the wayside. This isn't a good thing. I know a lot of people want death more impactful, but in Blob style rounds getting the entire crew involved in the fight is the ideal and expected strategy, it's not like valid hunting a changeling in maintenance where they just shouldn't have been involved. Everyone likes to say how brain-dead easy and quick the cloner is, but in the gif in this very thread, look at that corpse pile up. That shit isn't gonna go any better if you remove cloning, if anything it'll get worse. Cloning is "Fast and easy" according to people, so how well do you imagine it'll go when you have to SR an Defib every single corpse, blood transfusion a LOT of them from internal bleeding left unchecked, repair any broken bones (Potentially all of them if the body is trashed enough or was spaced long enough.) and all done on a single corpse before moving on to the next body. And that assumes Surgery isn't having to tend to LIVING patients in the mean time and can focus solely on those dead/newly revived people to fix up. It'll be a complete fucking nightmare the moment anything even slightly resembling a crisis rears it's head. The "Delete cloner/make it not roundstart" idea continues to be one of the worst possible suggests to ever grace this forum. It accounts for NONE of the reasons it exists and calls for removal of a core system without any thought for the literal years of development that has gone on around that system. What you're asking for is the equivalent of "Just rework Atmos." So much game design has gone on with the idea of cloning existing you're asking for an effective rework and re-balance of basically the entire game. Every traitor item, wizard spell and more were all balanced with the idea of cloning existing, of death being relatively quick and simple to reverse. This is beyond just changing medical this can, will and MUST change **EVERYTHING** or else it'll be half assed and more broken then anything. Baystation removed cloning and it still split the server down the middle, and this is a high RP server, full of people with the mindset of making death spooky scary and a big dramatic RP moment. Paradise is NOT High RP, we're full of people who want to play a 'game' as much as we have people who want some lighter forms of roleplay. This idea is dead in it's cradle, it solves nothing, breaks everything and is in general woefully unaware of it's own glaring flaws given I have never once seen them properly addressed
  11. The original idea put forth had a mechanical benefit, but it had to be removed before being merged as a PR.
  12. Solves nothing, causes even more problems and is a scapegoat people like to lean on for what they deem "Not skilled gameplay" as if we were some kinda Dark Souls experience. It's fine. It was fine. It will continue to BE fine. Cloning as a system continues to be used in almost every single codebase that SS13 has, with Baystation having removed it relatively recently, and even for a High RP station it pissed a lot of people off. So unless y'all are aiming to get in on the HIGH RP Perma-death action, maybe look at other codebases an put more thought into why the system exists as a whole an find ways to improve medical that don't involve pointlessly gutting entire systems because some people can't stand not getting specifically colored text for 10 seconds at the end of a round. I was pretty sure games were meant to be fun, but sure, being dead for 5-10 minutes or more as every single corpse that doesn't die in medical has to be given SR an gone through that whole long proceadure, will be ever so fun. I mean it's so fun NOW to be stuck in crit, right?
  13. It won't though. Like I'm not saying that I agree with the changes, at all. But that's just being a little disingenuous about the state of it, we both know that's not an accurate metaphor or equivalence at all, that there ARE systems at play and that doctors ARE doing those systems. They may not be systems we like, an the cloner will definitely be used more now, but to say medbay may as well be a conveyor to an from the cloner is just willfully misrepresenting the issue. Because I guess smaller injuries, surgery for things like broken bones, internal bleeding and limb reatattchment and the entire crit state just don't exist anymore, Paramedics don't exist and what is even that SR thing. Like. Yes. The Cloner will be used more, too much in the eyes of many, it's less realistic, etc. But god damn, y'all act like reviving dead people was your ONLY job and that with this change, all non-dead people will cease to exist, in a perpetuial state of being not quite dead, but also dead, a Schrodinger's Hellscape will overcome us all an doom will fall onto our station as Nar-sie nibbles on our meaty bits. Yes. The system's got some serious problems. But let's stop playing pretend that dead people being revived was the ONLY thing Medical did and that removing defibs suddenly DELETED those other non-dead players. It's exaggeration beyond the point of being worthwhile to the discussion. It adds nothing but noise at this, it just muddies the issue on both sides and makes it actively harder to debate and discuss. The strong emotional response has been noted, but now we need more then an emotional response, now we need more depth and criticism to be had about it.
  14. I agree. That's why my response on the neuro kits was "If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary." If Medical vendors already have mannitol pills in them, I am unsure why those kits are necessary.
  15. https://i.imgur.com/KnNrnzL.png The above is the image Fox put up on the PR in question of his medivend changes. I felt it was worth copying over here for people that may not check the git themselves all that much, and because a few things I wanna note about the tweaks made, an it's easier to have al ink here for reference then to ask people to go to the PR. Healing/Burn patches: Nice to have, though with the sleepers giving saline-glucose and the medical vendor giving saline-glucose, unsure how needed it is. But still nice. *thumbs up Diphenhydramine Bottle: Nice to have but not wholly sure how necessary it is, I personally don't see Histamine come up that much, but I know Fox mentioned that some chemicals were gonna be a lot more scary in the new system, like Sarin. So perhaps Histamine is one of those, but just putting it out there I don't run into it much. Salicylic Acid Bottle: Nice to have. Potassium Iodide Bottle: Not sure Radiation is a common enough occurance to need to be default in the medi-vend, but it's a brain dead chem recipe as it is an a chemist can make one in a couple seconds, so I suppose just having it by default won't change much. Saline-Glucose bottle: Not sure if needed, given sleepers produce the stuff. Though, I guess since it can be used to treat the first stages of shock, having a few bottles to carry around won't be remiss. Not sure if we need 5 though, 3 per medi-vend should be plenty given we have a LOT of medivends. Atropine Bottle: Good to have in case there's no chem, such as low-pop rounds. Oculine Bottle: Same as Atropine, good to have in case a total lack of chemistry, given Sleepers no longer produce the stuff. Small enough in quantity you could run out though, which will still give Chem incentive to make some, just nothing they need to rush out. Calomel Pill: Given Fox's claim that chems can be a lot scarier in this new system, probably worth having. Though I for see a lot of toxin deaths the first few weeks after being merged (Calomel will rapidly fuck your day if over 20 HP) Salbutomal pills: Not sure if needed because of sleepers, could just as easily put in some oxy-dep first aid kids into medical storage. Might lighten the load on them edivend, as the list of things it has is now pretty big. Mannitol Pills: Probably necessary given Brain damage during critical condition is now a thing and is what dictates death. Mutadone pills: I don't think this is necessary to have on hand in the medical vendor, unless it plays a new role in the system that I have overlooked somewhere. Now to address some of the other changes: If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary. No real opinion on this. Having more use to Fix-O-Vein is nice, and it's something you can't run out of (I don't think it took a use of a trauma kit to heal an organ though.) Not really any major medical changes here though, just swapping one tool for another. Could make ghetto surgery harder, as you could Trauma Kits here an there in maint. This is a little more where I have problems. Plasmemes have precious little going for them as it is (Aside a dope as fuck style.) and slimes having no organs and no breathing is a big deal. They were originally supposed to not have bones either, an that's already been compromised on, I'd really prefer not pulling back even more on that. Their blood is water, not because they have 'blood' like a circulatory system, but because they're made of slime, a gelatinous liquid substance. The 'skin' is just like a membrane holding the stuff inside. (And also for mechanical reasons.) A grander scale rework of Diona is probably in the cards, yes, but until then, removing their no breathe ability I'm sketchy on, not without also pulling back on how much slowdown they suffer at least. That seems like sometihng that should happen WITH a diona rework, and not in this particular system overhaul, since there's grander balance concerns to be had. Ultiamtely though, this stumbling point here is probably why this crit system is going to have a lot of issues. It's a goon-based system, and on Goon humans are the only species you can reliably play as. This system has a lot of depth, could be very nice IF we were an all-human kind of server, but we're not. And the only solutions are to either snowflake the other species real hard to make it work/ignore the system; to dramatically alter those species just to fit this system in, and like Fox said, conjure up compensating buffs/changes, which isn't always easy; or to leave both of them alone.