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Dinarzad last won the day on June 13

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  1. Being emagged by itself is not terrible. Being told "Welp gg no re you have 5 minutes to live then a 10 minute wait period, no matter what you do" is a problem. While some may not seek out being converted, it's not like there are players who would despise the sudden freedom to be an antag. There is actually a middle ground that exists between "Run at people and ask to be made antag" and "I never want to be converted ever." Personally, I don't like being emagged, don't like being antag period, but that doesn't mean I suddenly like what was done, because I'm thinking beyond my own personal feelings on the matter. The problem is, right now an emagged drone serves to be fun for no one. It;s not fun for the traitor, it;s not fun for the drone player, even someone who might be able to get into the "I am an evil sabotage bot" role and have fun with it, can't, because they have a whole 5 minutes to live. It is a change that benefits no one, harms a majority of players in multiple playstyles and does nothing to impair the one type of rule-breaking player that it was intended to stop.
  2. Just to put this out there, since most people didn;t read that PR in question by all accounts... My original argument (And still my current stance) is that if drones are going to be nerfed this hard and it;s the ONLY state that current staff will allow Emagged drones to be in, then yes I'd rather have them removed utterly. Better to remove them, then leave them as this broken, mess that is more of an active impediment and misery that they are in now. This was, is and will continue to be, my stance. Either tune it back, or just remove the option altogether, better that then to unintentionally fuck with people's heads.
  3. Because there's a big difference between removing a suicide pill, an item only designed to kill you to avoid capture, a pill that is very clearly labeled (It even has a skull an crossbones on it now). It is working as it is intended, it is SUPPOSED to kill you so that you won't be captured, or you can feed it to someone else if you so choose. And a device that has all the appearances of being a helpful tool for your agenda, that not only does nothing, but is an active detriment. It's the difference of me selling you something, the first one is a product I tell you flat out "This bottle is full of poison, so be careful with it." The next one is me telling you, it's a bottle of shampoo that will make your hair fabulous, and then it turns out to be Nair. You don't see where that just might be a little bit of an issue?
  4. Do you mean like the way I said it was a painful experience to play as, said that it did nothing to stop the actual problem but punished the people playing regularly, that it turned it into a noob trap for new antags to screw themselves over with? That the restrictions put on were horrifying? You mean THAT discussion of what was changed and how it made the server a worse place? Because I am pretty sure I did all that. So. No, I'm pretty sure you're looking for a reason to shut down my argument without ever having to address it. Moving goalposts isn't necessary here. Your comparison is flawed. You liken it to driving to a T intersection where you can only pick the pre-existing paths, but that's not what happens when a PR is made, is it? A PR is about CHANGING something, you are adding, removing or tweaking something. To work off your analogy, it is more similar to BUILDING that road, or in this case going back to a road already built and discussing with people how it should be changed. So again this binary logic does not work and I am still not sure where and how you are getting there. This was not a paid commission of code, this was not a set in stone truth of the universe, it was a PR providing a smorgasbord of options to do a thing, in this case to nerf Emagged maintenance drones. At no point, is someone obligated to push their PR EXACTLY as initially submitted, it can be changed. If you don't believe me, you can go read through older closed PRs and see how many of them were changed and tweaked from their initial submissions. So no, at no point did ALL OF THOSE things need to happen at the same time. And while you might not like this line of debate, you might deem it "of no substance" and irrelevant. It is actually, really really important we acknowledge this flaw, and acknowledge why it was bad, so that going forward we can, perhaps, not repeat the mistakes of the past. Something something not knowing history and being doomed to repeat it? Because this PR has already come and gone, it's a done deal. The least we can do is learn why it was a shit storm, so that we avoid future shit storms of that nature, going forward. And in the process we all learn the problems that shit storm has caused, but since you seem to think I didn't address this already, I'll indulge you with playing the broken record and repeating myself. The changes harm the server, because it's no good to the player base. It punishes the drone player for doing nothing wrong. It seeks to prevent people from intentionally being converted, and to make the drone far far less impactful when it IS emagged. In the former, it doesn't do a single thing. Someone who will intentionally be converted, will still do that, for a chance at a 5 minute murder/antag spree, no fuss, no muss. The latter was done so intensely that it has been left in a worthless/nigh worthless state. 5 minutes is not enough time to coordinate a plan from the traitor who emagged you, it is barely enough time to travel the station and begin your sabotage, it is all but impossible to do this quietly as you are painted with a giant "I AM EVIL" sign, and it is a clear giveaway that someone has an emag and is fucking with synths. So, stealthy sabotage bot is not quite in the cards, but their combat ability was also tanked as well on top. You cannot sneak. You cannot survive an attack. So what GOOD are you? This all, in addition. puts people on high alert REAL fast, so it actively strips some of your element of surprise away. It is a Noob Trap. Looks good on paper, but in actuality is inefficent and terrible, serving only to make people more guarded then if you had just left the Drone alone and just emagged into some location to do the sabotage manually. Drones may or may not have needed A nerf, but they did not need ALL the nerfs. TL;DR: It doesn't punish the people it is specifically trying to punish, instead it punishes the average joe who played the way they are supposed to. There is, after all, no way to know someone is holding an emag until he is emagging you, and running away is not an option, given you are slower and vent crawling takes time. In addition to punishing players with a shitty experience it punishes the traitor for doing it, by instead screwing him over, in the IDEAL case of the drone listening to his master, you get some minor sabotage at best, and your job made harder. In the case of someone just fucking off into the blue, you get nothing, and your job made harder.
  5. ... What? What.... does this even mean? You realize the PR was to apply a general nerf to emagged drones, right? Like thE PR was literally called a "Menu of Drone Nerfs", like a menu to pick from. As in... it wasn't to specifically do any one thing. It's not a binary state of "Everything" or "Nothing". It is... it is entirely possible to do ONE thing and not the other thens based on feedback given from other people looking at your PR. You can order just ONE item from a menu, you don;t need to order the entire thing. It's not like adding a feature, where you either add it or do not add it. This is a balance change. There's a LOT of numbers to tweak. You could add the 5 minute timer in isolation, or do one of the other nerfs first an then see how that effects balance before proceeding further with further changes if it proves necessary. A Suggestion can be options. They are suggested alternatives to what is being proposed in the present state. This entire suggestions sub-forum is to suggest options and ideas for code-savvy people to jump if they so choose. I... I don't understand where this binary thinking of "You either leave it alone or do five different changes in one PR" thinking is coming from, man, I need help here.
  6. It was always an option, there were a ton of suggestions when that PR was active and relevant. Most of those suggestions were not taken and the one that WAS taken, the 5 minute lifetime, ignored the critical second half of that suggestion, that the 5 minute duration would be enacted to the exclusion of the other nerfs. Instead it was rolled into the other existing ones, and followed up with a PR that made E-magged drones very very obvious, by giving them red eyes. So, another nerf on top of already game-changing nerfs before they had even settled. (Red-eye PR may actually have preceded the nerf PR, I cannot recall which came first.) Going back in time to change it is not an option. Acknowledging it was handled horribly during the affair so that it can be avoided going forward, is, however, very much an option. The key problem here is how many nerfs were made, massive balance changes, done in so short an order with little to no time for consideration or seeing what was necessary. It would not have killed people to take it slow, nor would it kill them going forward. Baby steps are better then yanking out 4 things at one time, because then if things go south, you have no idea which one of those things was the problem and which one was the vital component that made it all work. To draw a parallel, Fox recently added the Gloves of the North Star, letting them work with Hulk. He did this because he was already working on refactoring our Hulk code to be generally better all around, and when that refactor was done, the gloves would no longer work with Hulk. The consequence: This meant for a while Hulk + North Star was broken. You could kill people from 100 to dead in sub 3 seconds. It was timed. This was objectively broken more then Emagged drones ever could be. But it was a process that had time taken on it, because the end result was healthier for the game. What happened here was instead of each nerf being it's own PR, or each step taken bit by bit to get things done properly, overtime. Instead of asking people to live with it a little bit (They'd been just fine with it up to then, it wouldn't kill them to take it at a slower, deliberate pace), it was all lumped into one PR and jammed out of the gate as fast as possible, to the dismissal of everyone that was arguing it was going too far. This is the core problem. Not that it was nerfed, that it was nerfed too much and done so faster then any other PR, most other PR's get chided and finger wagged at for trying to jam through multiple major changes with that kind of speed, this one should have been no different but for some reason was.
  7. You're also comparing TG style drones to our more Bay-style drones, those are RADICALLY different systems. for one, Drone shells had to be built by crew, and secondly TG style drones DID NOT have a "Drone management console" like our more Bay-style does. They were, essentially, spiderbots with hands. Anyone who has ever made a spider-bot can tell you all the ways that can fucking go wrong. TG-style drones also had no inbuilt tools at all, they had storage, and everything else they had they had to go pick up around the station, which is also WAY easier to "Interfere" with, when you are looting engineering/science of it's resources. This is a comparison of apples to oranges. Just because they share the name "Drone" and had the same goal, the functions they took to get there were wildly different. And, as has been pointed out a lot over the years, we're not TG. We have a very different player base with a very different mentality, with a very different stance taken from administrators. These things do not compare beyond a superficial manner of comparison. So, yes. I decry the removal of game systems when the opportunity to improve them and work them into a more healthy state with minimal effort was right there, and I wasn't the only one decrying it. The temptation to do 'bad things' is all over SS13 as a base game, let alone in Paradise's serverbase. If we're going to start coding things out because "People might be tempted" then you better gear up for a whole lot of coding because boy-howdy there's a LOT of systems in this game that give you the chance to be an asshole that kinda just works on the honor system that people won't abuse it, or face the pain train of a banhammer. But you don't go around doing that because that is usually an objectively terrible idea that NEVER works out for the better. You cannot empirically prove a single thing, because the very nature of what you are saying is subjective. In your own argument, and in that PR it says as much that what was "Interfering" to one admin, was kosher with another, that's very damned definition of 'Subjective' so don't try and make it out like your opinion is an objective fact, because it is just that. It is not some scientifically proven fact, don't pretend otherwise. The 'Observation' you're trying to pass off as evidence isn't really applicable when the huge variation of settings exists.
  8. I've gotten Golem slimes done in sub-30 minutes, you go from grey to metal, to gold to admantine, each slime takes 2 monkeys, 1 to have it hit adult and 1 to split. If luck is on your side, you have adamantine slimes before you even need a single monkey cube refill, just using starter equipment. Both boils down to a waiting game and random chance, golems can take longer if luck isn;t on your side, Drones might never appear, both of them involve a bare minimum of effort put in by the antagonist. To say they're leagues apart is just completely ridiculous. It's pretty easy to make ANYTHING sound silly when you play the spin game.
  9. Xeno-bio comes down to "How lucky are you?" when it comes to getting the color of slimes you want. That's not "Work" that's RNGsus, that's rolling dice to see how fast you get adamantine slimes. And since most xeno-biologists make Adamantine slimes fairly regularly, monitoring xenobiology does absolutely nothing to counter anything. That's like seeing and stopping an engineer form doing the solars because he COULD be trying to overload the power system. All you do is pop the golem rune in maintenance or in the cult lair instead of in the camera filled lab and congrats, free cultists. And 1 adamantine slime can easily pop out 9 cores, when Science does upgrades to the machines as they almost always do, again with no work on the part of that cultist. That's about as much work as buying an Emag and rolling the dice that a drone joins into the game and that you happen to run into it early on enough to be a help. And emagging a drone makes it VERY obvious something is amiss, given it gives drones literally evil red eyes, so it also, more often then not, gives up a portion of your element of surprise. If all you're looking for was "Counterplay" then these nerfs do absolutely nothing to achieve the goal you're laying out. It does nothing to prevent how "easy" it is to do, it just makes the act of doing it at all a noob trap to the antag, and a giant pain in the ass for the drone player. All you need for counterplay is to put emagged drones on the drone console, same as an emagged cyborg, so that if it becomes clear it is emagged, you remotely blow it. THAT is counterplay. It also subtly encourages certain playre behaviours without being an active misery, because it encourages "Sabotage bot" playstyles, which was, according to the PR, the goal if the entire thing. A stealthy saboteur is less likely to be caught and blown, a murder-bot is going to get got reeeeeeeeal fast. What we got was a sledgehammer to the entire concept because "I personally don't like it so it should go away". And THAT is faulty design work when far better or less invasive alternatives were presented, and not even my own suggests, LOTS of people weighed in with solutiosn that were far more palatable then this.
  10. I did attack their idea, repeatedly, several times in the PR that brought the changes to begin with. There was never any real rebuttal to those arguments. I also gave alternative suggestions, I didn't just say "Idea's shit lol" and carry on, I provided thought out suggestions. Calling someone salty and saying they're letting it make them irrational is not a personal attack, it is absolutely calling into question the motives for WHY they're making their suggestions and motivations can be important to know. It's literally the entire reason that "i ded pls nerf" github tag even exists. If you disagree withsomeone, attack their idea, don't try to dismiss it out of hand because it was delivered in a way you don't like. The point of the maintenance drone is not to INTERFERE in the round, not have no impact, that notion is literally impossible. You cannot be involved in the round or exist in it and have no impact in it. Drones have engineering tools, can repair breaches/various items, can clean and even set up atmos layouts. ALL of those things impact a round rather heavily. If someone like an antag blows a hole in the station and a drone fixes it, it has impacted the round rather heavily, potentially foiling an antag's plot. If a drone repipes atmosia to be more effective, thus handling a plasma fire efficiently, it effected the round quite heavily. If it sets up the turbine/solars and helps power the station, it is impacting the round. By cleaning up a room of blood and gibs, it's potentially wiping away a crime scene before anyone saw it. That's another massive impact. Doing ANYTHING shy of being your normal everyday civilian RPing in the bar, is going to have tangible impact on the round. You cannot avoid a drone having impact in the round, by the fact it EXISTS, it has impact and always will, you;re taking that interpretation far too literally, or far too strictly. The goal is for them not to INTERFERE in the round, not to be seperate from it entirely. Earlier your quantification for "Emagging drones to work" was knowing that a drone didn't do so intentionally, that they didn't purposefully get themselves made an antag, but a positronic brain can do that EXACT same thing. They are both ghosts joining into the round, both can just as easily tell who is and isn't an antag prior to joining if they had a mind to. They are both designed to have impact in the round, just to differing levels. A borg can have MORE of an impact in a more open manner since it can talk. As for oversight, Drones have just as much oversight as Cyborgs, the problem isn't that they DON'T, the problem is the crew is too lazy to ever give a shit to do that. That shiny drone console in engineering tells you the location and name and status of every single active drone. It can be used to resync drone laws (Mostly a hold-over feature from when there was an occasional bug that caused drones to have borg laws instead of the KEEPER laws.) and to give a remote kill command to any NON-EMAGGED drones. Each drone has a unique number identification, and unlike cyborgs, blowing every single drone, while a dick move, is a lot less of a big deal, considering those non-antag players can also respawn. Currently, emagged drones do not appear on that console and are thusly, immune to it. Something emagged cyborgs can't say. That was why the number one suggested nerf was to have them show up ON that console and able to be remotely blown, just like a cyborg. Thus keeping drones from being tiny murderboner bots, because that's a great way to get yourself instagibbed. The choices taken to get to this point were illogical and irrational. Most people AGREED nerfs needed to be had, what people argued was for a series of smaller nerfs until we got to a good place, as opposed to taking a sledgehammer to the entire thing, repeatedly, in several areas all at once. Again, few people said they didn't need ANY nerfs. The problem was it was 3-4 all at the same time, instead of 1 or 2 to bring their power level down safely and slowly. It was all about a knee-jerk quick-fix instead of doing the job correctly and precisely.
  11. Positronic Brains, mid-round join cyborgs. Still can't stop 'em from knowingly getting antag'd. And yet, you still don't give cyborgs a 5 minute lifespan. The current design is good for no one. It's terrible for antagonists, cuz it just broadcasts their existence. It's terrible for the drone who gets 5 minutes to live and if it's player wasn't keen on antagging to begin with, now has to stop everything it was doing for 15 minutes, the length of a major crime brig sentence, for doing nothing. It was a kneejerk reaction that went WAYYY too far. The alternative people gave wasn't even minor. Just make emagged drones appear on the drone console to be remotely blown, just like cyborgs. Now Drones have to play with a measure of caution, just like borgs, else they just get remotely blown. Why all this OTHER stuff happened is beyond me, the fix was simple, it was easy, it was the ultimate nerf that didn't ruin everyone's good time. But instead of going down the easiest, clear-cut path, we elected to take weird and horribly confusing paths to achieve the same goal an all we got was obnoxious design because of it. A Good compromise is one that everyone can live with and tolerate, that works out for both parties. This was never a compromise. This was one side's salt overdose hitting lethal quantities and letting it cloud their judgment with irrational thinking.
  12. Sort of. 5 minutes limits your misery, but before you could be given orders to go an chaos havoc, to be a saboteur. Now, five minutes is barely enough plan to lay out a plan, get there and enact it.
  13. A PR was made to do exactly that, and it was shot down. And to be honest, at this juncture I find it the most preferable option. It's better to justn ot be able to be emagged at all, then to be emagged while you're on some other project an be forced into an Antag's personal all-access ID card for 5 minutes instead of doin somethin like pipe atmosia or somethin'.
  14. That's no different then, as a civilian, running at a Shadowling or cult to get converted, but you don't suddenly make it so all converted greytide gib after 5 minutes or making Emagged cyborgs blow after 5 minutes. There are somethings that cannot and should not be handled via mechanics for these kinds of reasons. That is something for administration. As I recall it, few people disagreed Drones were TOO strong, but the nerfs applied to them were far and away too much, and that was the toned down edition. It's of dubious use to most antags and it's a direct killjoy on the Drone to go "Welp you got 5 minutes lol gg no re". Because bear in mind the death also forces that 10 minute cooldown on being able to rejoin. So as somone is playing a drone, gets e-magged out of the blue and toddles on to a death they can do nothing to stop, their entire gameplay interrupted, they now have to wait just to get back to what they were doing, a total of at most, 15 minutes. The equivalent of a Major Crime brig sentence, just for being caught out. It was to the point a LARGE portion of people in the debate when it was happened said to just make drones unable to be e-magged BECAUSE the nerfs were so extreme. They needed to be toned down, but what they got was ridiculously overkill. You want to make an e-magged drone not a combat machine, I'm fine with that, make thme utterly unable to attack things while emagged so they can be nasty little sabotage bots, I am fine with that. But their current state is easily the most painful experience I have had on paradise since it went through. Making something painful to play as a 'Balance' to discourage an activity you will NEVER be able to stop, is not good. It punishes a player who did nothing wrong and does nothing to stop the other kind of player they'll still do it for a chance at 5 minutes of murderboning. Drones are actual players too, they should PROBABLY be allowed to have fun now an again.
  15. The Kinetic Accelerator is far and away the most useful and powerful mining tool you can get. Even in it's basic state you still end up mining faster with it then a pick axe. And even if science utterly ignores you, 2 cooldown mods and 1 damage mod, leave you able to clear things out fast, shred through mobs and pop open abandoned crates in relatively short order. If science DOES give you the mining AoE, then every shot is mining a 3x3 radius, more then a RIPLY drill does, ona shorter cooldown at range. As for the Crusher, I've always assumed it to be a very intentional "Hard mode" for mining, that's why it's so unwieldy. It's also justn ot quite up to "Par" as it should be however, as it's something that heavily involves Lavaland stlye mining, where, on killing creatures with the Kinetic Crusher, you have a chance to drop special trophies from that that you slap onto the Crusher to improve it. (Killing Legion mobs for example, which are basically reskinned Hivelords, can grant you a 'Legion Skull' which reduces the cooldown of the crusher))