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EvadableMoxie last won the day on February 18

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  1. So upon further testing: You can use a 60/60 atropine/Cryox mix in your cryotubes. It won't save everyone but with how much RNG there is in the system, nothing will. The only caveat is that you have to make sure their heart doesn't stop, so if damage is below -100 or so, eject them every so often to check. It'll be pretty rare anyone that hurt makes it to medical alive, though. The other option is atropine and then use a sleeper to inject salgu, salb, and epine. This will eventually stabilize them. Or in the field, atropine and treat the damage like you'd normally do. I hope a pattern is developing here. Carry syringes of Atropine round. Although patients don't instantly die at -100, much beyond that they die so fast that they might as well. I wasn't able to save anyone with more than -200 HP even giving them immediate treatment with defibs and atropine, they still just randomly die, even without cardiac arrest hitting stage 3.
  2. As a test, I used an admin spawned human and used admin tools to deal 200 burn damage, then timed how long it took for them to die. These times aren't precise as I don't have a stopwatch and had to alt tab back and forth, but are generally accurate within 1-2s. Test 1: 2:28. Subject started taking brain damage after 1:47. Died with 664 respiration damage and 75 brain damage Test 2: 0:56. Subject started taking brain damage after 0:35. Died with 297 respsiration damage and 36 brain damage. Test 3 0:18. Subject started taking brain damage after 0:08. Died with 139 respiration damage and 18 brain damage. Test 4: 1:33. Byond bugged and didn't update the scanner so I don't know when brain damage started. Died with 818 respiration damage and 102 brain damage. Test 5: 1:43. Subject started taking brain damage after 1:05. Died with 530 respiration damage and 60 brain damage. I'd hazard a guess that in a real scenario the odds any of those test dummies could have been saved by medical, even if it was staffed by the best medical players in existence is practically zero, simply because none of them would likely have made it to medical before dying. Keep in mind, these numbers are withn me using admin tools to deal 200 burn damage. In a realistic scenario where someone is taking brute by an antag or atmos death blender, it's probably going to be a lot worse. There definitely needs to be some adjustments made on the time til death, and there certainly needs to be a floor so patients can't just randomly die in 20 seconds. Edit: For some practical advice to anyone playing medical. At round start acquire a bucket. Go to the mendvend. Vend a bottle of Epi, Sal-Glu, Atropine, and Salylic Acid. Then vend 1 pill of Mannitol and 1 pill of Salbumtol. Add 20 of each bottle to the bucket, then disolve both pills in it. Grab a syringe and fill it. Inject literally everyone who comes into medical in crit with that. If you're the CMO, use your hypo instead of a syringe, it's faster. Normal hypos won't take atropine sadly, and if you have to give it separately it kind of defeats the point of the hypo being faster. Edit 2: Actually, forget all that. Just carry Atropine, it's all you need. They can't die unless they suffer cardiac arrest, and they can't suffer cardiac arrest if they have Atropine in them. Defib if their heart is already stopped. Once atropine is in them, treat as normal to get them out of critical. In fact, it should generally be safe to just inject 15u of atropine from a syringe and then dump them into cryo as long as their heart isn't already stopped. Edit 3: Theoretically, you should be able to just add atropine to the cryomix and just cryo everyone. Will require testing. Once that's done, your biggest issue will be your fellow doctors trying to drag your patients away and throw them into cryo. I would recommend murdering them with a hatchet.
  3. Discussing the chance of it occurring on literally the first possible tick isn't very useful for us to get a handle on how much it's going to impact antags. I think it would be a lot more useful to know, on average, how long it would take for someone at -1 HP to die, assuming they took no additional damage from outside sources.
  4. I'd argue it's more realistic not to have magical defibs that revive dead people. I don't feel realism has much value though. I agree with you on less fun, but of course that's subjective. You're right that it's hyperbolic to say literally everyone will have to be cloned. That said, it will reduce the 'pool' of patients medical has that can be interacted with in ways other than cloning them. That's going to be rough for a department that already struggles to generate enough to do most rounds. Exactly how bad it's going to be is open for debate, but it's going to be some degree of bad.
  5. I stand corrected. Sigh... more hacking away at the hole to make the peg fit.
  6. The lack of revival methods is kind of baked into the new crit system. If it's easy to revive someone who dies on you while in crit, then them being in crit loses it's weight. That's kind of why revival methods and the new system don't really mesh well... which in turns leads to the 'shove everyone dead in the cloner' problem because once they're dead a doctor can longer interact with them in any other way. That's one of the reasons I no longer support it, after liking it initially. I feel like we have this really nice square peg we're trying to shove into a round hole, and since it doesn't fit we're just taking a saw to the hole until it does, rather than simply using a round peg. Also, it is still possible to do heart transplants, but you'll need to either be really quick or use Corazone.
  7. Just saying a change is unpopular isn't useful feedback. You won't convince anyone it's true just by insisting it is. Even if you did, saying a change is unpopular isn't necessarily an argument that it shouldn't happen. I would recommend giving your thoughts about why the changes are bad. Even if you're just saying "I agree with this person."
  8. It was satirical actually, as in an attempt to use humor to prove a point. I'm sorry you didn't like it, but it wasn't a dig at you personally. Let me try to explain to you where I'm coming from here. What I hope to avoid is medical doctors on Paradise becoming simply cloner operators. To that end, I want methods to actually treat people, not put them in a machine that just makes their injures irrelevant. There are two ways to do that. One way is to nerf cloning. The other (which I personally think is the vastly superior option) is treatment methods that rival cloning. Treatment methods skilled doctors can use to get people back alive and kicking more quickly and efficiently than cloning. So when you have newbie doctors they just throw everyone in cloning and it takes awhile, but if you have skilled and robust doctors they can use other methods to get people back alive and kicking. Who is staffing the medbay becomes vitally important and has a major impact on outcomes for patients. The thing is, this is exactly what people want to get rid of. The argument there is to nerf everything BUT cloning, so everyone has to use cloning. Then cloning won't be so good because there will be a backlog. By removing or nerfing everything but cloning, we actually in effect nerf cloning by creating pressure on it. If this isn't your actual argument, please correct me to what it is. That just seems to be my impression from what you and some others have said. I don't want to misrepresent you. That argument makes sense if your perspective is solely on the overall balance of how easy or difficult it is for people to get back into the round, and you don't care at all about how fun or interesting the medical profession is. If you do care about that, even a little, this option is disastrous. I'd also argue it's inherently flawed since the bottleneck can be bypassed by building additional cloning pods, but that's getting off topic a bit. So, why is that option so bad in my opinion? Before, everyone who came into medical who was dead for less than 5 minutes could be defibbed, and then you had a patient to work on and do your job as a doctor. Now it's 2 minutes. If the new crit system passes, everyone who comes in dead will be someone doctors cannot interact with beyond throwing them in the cloner or morgue. So the window of patients we actually have to do medical work on will become incredibly thin. We'd need someone who has taken enough damage for there to be something more for us to do than a few patches, but yet not taken too much damage to die. And we need them either not in crit, or in crit but arriving in time to be saved. Will there be patients like that? Sure. But a whole heck of a lot less than there were when you could treat anyone who died in the past 5 minutes. The majority of 'patients' won't be people doctors can actually do anything with beyond throwing them in a cloner or morgue tray. On other servers that might be fine. Maybe because on Bay there is a much larger emphasis on roleplay. Maybe lethal attacks are rarer, and when people do die, it's a lot more about the aftermath of being cloned and the necessary counseling for the mental issues that arise from it, than it is about the actual medical treatment. And maybe it's okay on TG because TG is more about the antags and the action they provide than how each department operates in a bubble. And maybe the medical system is designed more to get people back into the round fast than it's designed to be fun and challenging for the doctors. I don't play on those servers regularly, so I don't know. I do know that not everything that works on other servers works here, something we agree on when it comes to this critical system. And I do know that if the critical system goes through as is, and cloning goes through as is, doctors will largely be cloner operators with a very narrow band of actual patients who need to be treated. That's going to be a massive blow to what was a fairly good and rewarding medical system. That's why I'm really, really concerned with the idea of nerfing everything but cloning in order to pressure it. I hope you can understand that, even if you can't agree with it.
  9. Or the downsides are non-existent once the cloner is upgraded. But I think saying "Cloning is the problem" and saying "Cloning's current mechanics are the problem" is functionally the same argument. I'm certainly not arguing that cloning couldn't be changed so it isn't a problem, I'm just saying as it exists now it's a problem.
  10. In the new system there will only be cloning and SR, since defibs don't revive, and you need to defib to do a brain transplant. I suppose you could borg someone, if that counts as revival. But yup, that's it. And keep in mind, SRing someone will be even harder than it is now, as you'll have to deal with the new critical system, plus any future nerfs to SR.
  11. I agree completely, cloning isn't a problem at all. Doctors just need to get better at using ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS when it gets overrun in extreme emergencies (the only time it ever will be overrun). I'm tired of all these baldy doctors who think the only thing they can do is clone, when we have so many viable and robust ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS available. Let me all tell you a story about how it's really done. Let's say it's terror spiders or something and cloning is overwhelmed and bodies are piling up. As an industrious doctor who knows his shit I say "Ah! The cloner is overwhelmed! It's finally my time to shine as a medical doctor! I will not just piling bodies at the cloner, I will use the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS to get everyone alive in no time and being a fucking MEDICAL HERO. Okay. So first I sift through the dead bodies. By now, most of them are ghosting. Some have respawned as terror spiders. Some have logged off. So I systematically drag them one by one to the morgue tray until I find purple lights. Ah! they're still logged in. I don't know if they want to come back to life, but hey this one has promise! So I SR them, and nothing happens, because they aren't in their body. So, I wait a bit and SR again. Still nothing. That's two SR pills down. Oh well. I move onto the next. Surely someone in this giant pile of corpses wants to come back and I'm going to be a MEDICAL HERO when I show off my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. So finally I find one that comes back. By now I've used up 6 SR pills, but hey, I got one! I rush them to Cryo and... huh, already dead. Try to defib. Uh oh. Heart arythamwasit? Oh, their heart is dead. Well, I'll just ask the friendly and responsive genetics department for a humanized monkey, since that's their job and surely my peers are as dedicated to the medical profession as I am. Oh, there's just one geneticist and he hasn't moved in the past 45 minutes. Well, I guess it's time to go hunt down tools and break into genetics. Okay, whew, someone else already broke into cargo, so I can get a multitool easily. I just had to dodge a few spiders, no big deal. Now, just a detour to learn the wires, shocking myself in the process but no problem, I got meds4dayz. Okay, hack into genetics, disassemble the window, grab a monkey cube box. Now just put it into the empty genetics scanner, mess with the last block, and aha a humanized monkey! Now, I could have taken the heart from it as a normal monkey but I know I'm going to have to replace the limbs, so might as well humanize it now while I'm already broken in. Okay, I have what I need. It's time to practice ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. As soon as I find the body of my patient. I swear he was here just a minute ago... Well, let's go searching morgue trays. I sure hope he hasn't just logged out or respawned as a terror spider in the meantime. Oh lucky me, I found them and the tray is still purple. Okay, great, time do my thing! As soon as an OR opens up. I need to remove the heart and replace it, but both ORs are taken, because of course they are, it's a terror spider attack. So, I wait. and I wait. There's no formal queue here, and the living people are already screaming about the wait, I really can't bump them out to do surgery on a corpse. After awhile, a tiny hole opens up and I slip in and get started. The surgeon who was in the OR is now swearing at me for 'stealing their OR' and screaming to the CMO to demote me. Two patients in the waiting area with broken bones are swearing at me for treating a corpse when they're alive. The surgeon is now back trying to chain disarm me. We have an impromptu doctoral deathmatch for dominance of the OR, and the space gods favor me, and I now control the OR. Of course. I'm a MEDICAL HERO. Surely, when they see the power of my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS, they'll all see the folly of questioning me. One of the living patients is now on the floor in critical with spiderlings pouring from them. Okay, take old heart out, put new heart in, defib... Oh right. It's been like 20 minutes now, way beyond defib range. But that's fine, more SR! Oh boy, the heart didn't die this time! Cryo them up, go back to the OR.. oh, it's taken again. Well, I'll just keep them in cryo until it opens up. Of course, since it's terrors and we have a bunch of critical people coming in, the other doctors aren't happy about me keeping a cryotube constantly occupied, and the Cryox is draining pretty fast, but that's just because they're incompetent baldies that don't know about ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. Finally get back into an OR. Patient dies 3 times on the table, but I just keep defibbing to reset and eventually I have all the septic limbs removed, I've repaired their chest and skull, both IBs, and replaced their missing blood. The patient has no legs, and I can't replace them because terror spiders have taken over genetics and someone stole my humanized monkey. But, my patient is alive. I look down at him on the roller bed as I drag him to the shuttle which has now arrived because by now it's the end of the round. I tell him he has been saved by a MEDICAL HERO using the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. He asks me why I didn't just clone him. Urgh. I calmly explain to the half a person on the roller bed that cloning has numerous drawbacks. It can be overwhelmed, or tampered with! Yes, what we just went through was a much better option, and I'm sure, any day now, the rest of my fellow doctors will come to see that and start playing medical doctor the way I do. With the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. I don't get karma. tl;dr: Cloning is fine, it just needs to get overrun so Doctors will use ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS which are completely viable in the emergency situations that would lead to the cloner being overrun in the first place. SR is OP, it needs to take at least 10u to revive someone and the recipe should require a ground up chain of command. Spaceproof races are OP, nerf slime people. Death is trivial.
  12. Not in that situation. The SoP is to keep all Cyborgs linked to the AI, unless it's subverted or Malf. That's the only bit regarding Cyborg laws, so there's nothing saying a Roboticist can't change Cyborg laws freely if there is no AI, or the AI is compromised. (There isn't anything saying anyone else can't either, but Borg maintenance is clearly within a Roboticst's duties). There are a lot of rules regarding modifying the AI's laws, but all of them specifically say 'AI' and not 'AI and Borgs.'
  13. To upload new laws you'd need a Cyborg upload. That's on the bridge, although nothing stops a roboticist from just printing one via their circuit imprinter.