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EvadableMoxie last won the day on October 18

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  1. Thanks for the insight regarding the timing of the change. I can understand how reverting it now only to change it later might cause confusion. That said, given how the PR's operate, there is no guarantee a PR will ever be made to change the syndicate key, and no guarantee it would be accepted even if it is. This is especially true due to the feature freeze. Given that, I feel it would be better to revert this change now rather than just hope eventually it gets solved down the line. That is, assuming you agree with me that the change, given the current circumstances, is not a good one for the server. Assuming that we still disagree on that... I don't wanna split hairs on if we call it realism or enforcement or whatever. My main argument is that there are a ton of things security is not allowed to do that doesn't make much sense for them not to be allowed to do from an in character perspective. Why is using syndicate keys specifically an issue and the rest of them aren't? If anything it sticks out to me more to make a single exception to the contraband rules when really there's no reason for any restrictions to exist on security's use of contraband if we want to go by what NanoTrasen would realistically do. We have a ton of out of character rules that govern in character behavior that we all agree to in order to make things fun for everyone. A lot of them mean you don't play to win, you do things sub-optimally to give the other side a chance and make things interesting. This applies to both security and antags. Not using syndie comms to just bust every syndicate using them and turn the round into extended has always been once such rule, one I felt both sides considered to be perfectly reasonable.
  2. Okay, so have read the reasons, let me explain why I disagree with them. Realism - It doesn't make sense that NanoTrasen wouldn't allow security to use the headsets. In general, 'realism' isn't a good argument for any change in a video game, outside of a very specific group of games which SS13 is firmly outside of. The way almost every type of security works is just completely unrealistic. There is simply no way any corporation would run security like this. Doors leading to highly sensitive areas that can be hacked in 2 seconds. All authorizations done with a single factor of authorization that can easily be stolen or misplaced. The inability to deactivate lost or stolen credentials remotely. Doors that open with a crowbar in the event of a routine power grid check. It's worse than the dumbest action movie. We're playing a game where you might get attacked by a Space Wizard who will make you shit out your appendix and then turn you into a mutated clown causing you get eaten by a Laughter demon who just wants to hug and tickle you and also can materialize from blood. Realism was killed and replaced by a changeling before it arrived on the station. Enforcement - It feels too jarring to have to tell people they can't do it when it's such an obvious thing to do. This is a different argument from realism, and falls more in line with intuitiveness and enforcement of the rules than trying to make things realistic. I'm not an admin, so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here. I don't know how often Admins have to bwoink security for using confiscated headsets, and so I cannot say with any certainty that it is or isn't a problem. I can tell you from my observations as a player, I've rarely seen it happen, but if an admin tells me it's a problem, of course I will believe them since they would know more than I would. But let me just address this idea of arbitrary things you aren't allowed to do because of rules that an evil mega-corporation would not have, yet inexplicably does. Like with realism, this is cherry picking one specific instance of it while ignoring all the others. Why wouldn't you just card the AI at the start of every shift to check if it has a Law 0? Why wouldn't you, in fact, move the core to the Upload on the bridge so you have easy access if it gets subverted? Why doesn't security round up all the high value items traitors might want to steal and secure them? Why doesn't security start randomly dragging people into the chapel when there are vampires? Why doesn't the Captain just immediately fire the head of personnel and replace them with someone from security who is mind-shielded? Why doesn't security just perma every civilian since they don't actually do anything? In fact, why do any rules against using contraband exist at all? What's the downside for NanoTrasen, exactly? This isn't whataboutism by pointing out other bad rules. Rather, the point is to show that these rules, while not what one would expect a soulless evil mega corporation to have, are good things that make the game more fun and curtail potential abuses by security and command. I would submit that while it makes sense NT would let security use the key from an IC perspective, from an OOC perspective it's unfun and unsporting and a rule against it makes the server a better place, just like the rules preventing all of the above do. Risk - There's no risk associated with the item. There absolutely is risk associated with this item. If anyone is on the same tile as you and a message comes into your headset from any channel, not just the traitor channel, they now know you have a key. This can happen when you slip in the hall and they slip on the same tile, or just when someone pushes past you at the perfect moment. Additionally, anytime you deal with your fellow traitors you're taking a risk. They might have you as a target, or you might have the same steal objective and they plan to kill you to steal it or eliminate the competition. And even if security can't use the key to ID you, your fellow traitors will know who you are, and might just sell you out to try to get better treatment (It never works, but I've seen traitors try). Additionally, I disagree with the premise that every item must have an inherent risk. A lot of items do not, like for example the Camera Bug, fully loaded toolbox, no-slip shoes or adrenals. It's too good - The item needed a nerf because it was too powerful. It's really difficult to say anything in Space Station 13 is over powered or under powered when something like water spray or soap could be the difference between an antag being caught in the first 5 minutes or destroying the entire station. I just never got the impression this item was overpowered. I've seen people complain about Gloves of the North Star, d-swords, tele-science, science in general, Sleeping Carp... I can't recall anyone in deadchat ever salting about Syndicate Encryption keys. For me personally, this nerf feels like it's out of the blue. I don't see traitors consistently taking the syndicate key. I especially don't see powergamers taking it. Every murderbone powergamer I've seen have one thing in common: They work alone. They rarely talk to anyone at all except to gloat to security and command, and they especially don't spend TC to talk to people. If a traitor is grabbing the key for all comms, this change doesn't change anything. It's only specifically the traitors who try to communicate with and cooperate with their fellow traitors who will be hurt by this rule change. Isn't that the demographic we should be least interested in hurting? So, that's my rebuttal for the reasons for it changing. As for why I feel it should stay the same? It creates opportunity for traitors to do more than just Stun -> Cuff -> Drag to maintenance. It allows for the use of complex strategies and fun interactions. There's a reason heist movies always have a crew of different and wacky people who don't entirely trust each-other but are forced to work together. Because that's interesting. Changing it in this way won't create new opportunities for security. It's just going to kill the item by making even less people take it, and making the people who do take it never talk on it. Less interaction is not a good thing. Less options is not a good thing. I agree with Necaladun that things like obfuscated names would be good, and would make this change much more reasonable. And that's why it shouldn't be changed now. Change it once you have those improvements in place. Don't break it now because it might get fixed later. Sorry for the wall of text, and thank you for taking the time to read it. I don't play traitor much, but one of the few draws for me was always being able to get a key and cooperate with other traitors. Seeing that effectively taken away is sad for me personally, so I just really needed to share my thoughts and concerns on it. I would urge the Admin staff to please reconsider this rule change.
  3. So, I'll just repost what I said the last time this got brought up: To summarize: The problem isn't so much that it's too easy or too hard to win, because that really depends on the skill level of the players, and there is a huge gap there. The problem is that the high skill players don't have sub-optimal paths to challenge themselves with. You'll never balance shadowlings because the difference between a new player and an experienced player is way too wide. If you balance for the newbie, the experienced player always wins. Balance for the experienced player, the newbie has no chance. So instead, give multiple paths to victory and what happens is the experienced players will challenge themselves. This is how basically all other antags work. Except shadowlings. For shadowlings, experienced players snowball to a quick victory because there's literally no other way to play shadowling. Oh, and one easy way to improve the mode I think would be to end it as soon as a shadowling ascends. If any antag doesn't deserve a 5 minute gloating murderbone victory lap, it's shadowlings.
  4. I'm not sure how useful the data would be, given that both sides aren't usually playing to win on a lot of game modes.
  5. That sort of thing does happen, though. There are rounds where Xenos or terror spiders get out of control and most of the station is dead, in addition to adminbus rounds where things just go to shit for various reasons. Generally this is fine because new Xenos and spiders are playable by ghost roles, and there are ERTs and the like to bring players back into the game. A fair amount of people do complain in dead chat, especially if the disaster was an adminbus, but they can and do happen. I will say that your complaint about limited antag interaction is a valid one, and how exclusive (In that they exclude people) some of the rounds are is one of the things I dislike about rounds like Cult. I really wish there were more ways to get involved outside of directly fighting antags as security. For the problems Shadowlings has as a round one thing it gets right is that there is something for pretty much every department to do.
  6. Science and Supply via mining are the only departments that makes money. They are the reason the station exists, everything else is there to support them. Of the two, science makes a lot more via research. Mining brings in the materials but Science is the department that turns them into practical things. Sure other departments could make some side scratch, like botany could sell extra products, but it's not the purpose of the station and generally there would be cheaper ways. It's probably cheaper to grow the food you need to feed your workers on station, but it's probably not viable economically to mass produce for sale that way. Different departments don't need to be economically independent, that's not really how the station works or is meant to work. Most departments don't create products, they exist to serve the people living on the station.
  7. Traitors can turn their TC in their uplink into raw telecrystals, which can then be traded to other traitors. This lets them pool TC or trade TC for favors for objectives.
  8. I don't really have a problem with AIs being free to doomsday regardless of objectives. The doomsday is much different than a crew member with Hijack. Both doomsday and releasing the engine end the round. Releasing the engine is easy and almost impossible to stop unless you get really lucky whereas a doomsday takes awhile to build up and alerts the crew. The crew has a ton of different options for dealing with a malf AI, it's actually incredibly difficult to successfully doomsday a competent crew with competent command, whereas it's trivial for a traitor with hijack to release the engine.
  9. Sometimes it's cool to have a trial and the law allows it to happen, but forcing security to take the time and manpower to indulge every EoC in a trial would probably be a disaster.
  11. It looks a container of Duke purple tea has a 20% chance of having 3 units of mugwort tea in addition to the actual tea: /obj/item/reagent_containers/food/drinks/tea name = "Duke Purple Tea" desc = "An insult to Duke Purple is an insult to the Space Queen! Any proper gentleman will fight you, if you sully this tea." icon_state = "teacup" item_state = "coffee" list_reagents = list("tea" = 30) /obj/item/reagent_containers/food/drinks/tea/New() ..() if(prob(20)) reagents.add_reagent("mugwort", 3) Tea reagent 'tea' does heal 1 toxin damage on a 20% chance per tick: /datum/reagent/consumable/drink/ name = " " id = "tea" description = "Tasty black tea: It has antioxidants. It's good for you!" color = "#101000" // rgb: 16, 16, 0 nutriment_factor = 0 adj_dizzy = -2 adj_drowsy = -1 adj_sleepy = -3 adj_temp_hot = 20 drink_icon = "glass_brown" drink_name = "Glass of Tea" drink_desc = "A glass of hot tea. Perhaps a cup with a handle would have been smarter?" taste_message = "tea" Looks like I missed the other effects, though.
  12. Noted, thanks. That cell charger change is mildly annoying, going to have to move it back to the cryo tubes every round. Not sure why they'd change that. Especially weird since they just added one to that location on Meta.
  13. Damn it, I copy and pasted that line from Drask. Good catch. Also good idea on the damage types.
  14. Encyclopedia Medicina When I first started playing SS13 the first job I picked up was medical doctor. Over the years I code dived to learn more about the profession and recording my findings. I eventually moved on from medical, but the notes remained. I've reformatted all the data I've mined from looking at the code and placed it into Encyclopedia format, along with my own experiences and advice in medical. Because the info was extracted over a period of a few years some info might not still be accurate although I've tried to go back and update everything. If there is anything you know for sure is inaccurate please let me know. I've tried to stick mostly to facts and not opinions although a but of editorializing was necessary. If you disagree with anything herein feel free to reply and give your reasons respectfully. If anything is inaccurate or incomplete please let me know so a correction can be made.
  15. I have a very different perspective of that round. The AI brought attention to the TK by making a big announcement stating 'NO ONE GO TO GENETICS' Before this I had no idea what was going on and would not have if the AI hadn't pointed it out. Telling everyone 'Don't do X' is pretty much the best way to make them 'Do X,' although personally I just saw Ethos and Squishy having fun with it and wanted to join them. I was arrested for the break in since I hung around too long hoping to make a second injector. I was told I'd be charged with 'having illegal powers' which I pointed out was not a crime and security kind of just left me in processing. The HoS came in and asked why I was arrested, and I told him honestly I committed trespass and resisting arrest and should have 10 minutes. The HoS then left me alone with the clown who uncuffed me. Security left me my tools so I hacked the door to maintenance so the clown could leave, then returned to my seat as the HoS came back in. He initially said he was going to charge me for escaping but either I talked him out of it or he got bored and he just left again. While in the brig I found out the chaplain had refused to make Holy Water for sec as they felt sec should let people keep powers. Eventually another officer came back and charged me. After my sentence was up, I left the brig, still having TK as no one in sec bothered to remove it. I went to try to talk to the Chaplain to ask him to reconsider his stance and give sec holy water. At this point sec said they're going to just start killing cultists since they have no holywater and can't deconvert them, a idea that the crewismov AI apparently agreed with. This of course got the crew even more upset, and rightly so, as cultists are innocent brainwashed crew members. I pointed out to sec that Holy Water isn't impossible to make without the Chaplain and even told them it's just Water, Wine, and Mercury, they can mix it themselves. No one in security bothered to. After sec tried to remove my powers I slipped them and hid in maintenance for a bit. After that I talked to the Chaplain and tried to get him to give sec holy water, pointing out that I think things had gone too far and despite security being not all that great, people could get killed here and this is a bit much. He still refused so I went to the bar and got a bottle of wine, then broke into MedChem. I made 3 beakers of 90 u of holy water and delivered them to the brig, along with a coffee mug for them to use. At this point the TK explorers wanted to leave the station which I was totally down for. The CE was handing out suits so I grabbed one and joined them, and we zoomed through space in a locker screaming lyrics to Running in the 90s. We hit the white ship and hung out there for a bit before we got the control board and flew it back to the station. I left the ship, hopped on the shuttle when it arrived, and left. Throughout the whole round I used TK maybe 3 or 4 times. I never used it to escape security, the only thing I used for that was water spray. As near as I can tell, the cult was never a major threat, the round ended without a summon attempt and with no cultists active. The problem that round really wasn't crew having TK, it was security and the AI being terrible. Part of the things they did were forgivable. Part of them really wasn't. Mistakes in how to handle a situation are one thing, but a crewismov AI and security thinking it's okay to just kill captured cultists is something that shouldn't happen. You're expected to know certain things when you play sec or AI. Anyway: here is how a competent security team should have handled that round. 1: Don't draw attention to the fact that rogue genetic powers are up for grabs in the first place. Let security know and take care of it privately. Don't leave a monkey with TK sitting in genetics to make it easy for anyone to break in and steal it. This is a classic mistake of an AI inserting themselves into a situation they don't need to be involved in. The AI's announcement about staying out of genetics made people flock to it. I don't even know why a crewismov AI cared in the first place. 2: Don't make a public ultimatum to the crew. Announcements to the crew saying 'DON'T DO X OR I'LL SPANK YOU' Only encourage crew to do X. This is something we've seen time and time again. Remember Sportsball? All of that because the Captain said baseball bats weren't allowed. Don't do this. Ignorance of Space Law isn't an excuse so if the law is on your side, no public announcement is needed. 3: If you are going to depower people, do it the right way. Until I left the station towards the end of the round, I never had a hardsuit, and a syringe gun with mutadone would have easily depowered me. Additionally, I was in security custody for over 20 minutes and could have easily been fed Mutadone. The HoP and Captain also never bothered demoting the Chaplain for refusing to assist security or for keeping a stash of TK injectors. 4: Be proactive to solve problems rather than just giving up. Yea, it sucked the Chaplain wouldn't give security holy water, but there are rounds where it happens. Sometimes the Chaplain is killed, sometimes they go SSD, sometimes they mass driver themselves 5 minutes into the round. Holy Water is not some rare and unobtainable thing. I'm sure the CMO or RD would have made them some if they asked. Worse case scenario, you Law 2 the AI to let you into sci or medchem and you make Holy Water. This is honestly good advice for SS13 in general. Be someone who solves problems, not someone who complains about them and does nothing. 5: Don't rile the crew up even more by not only disregarding space law but then stating publicly exactly how you've decided to disregard it. Saying they were going to start executing cultists only further united the crew against them and removed any remaining respect for security the crew might have had. I'm not going to argue that people with genetic powers can be shitters, nor that there was no abuse of TK that round. But the round went to shit due to a combination of that and Security and the AI massively mishandling the situation in more or less the worst possible way they could have. There is far more to be learned from that round regarding the mistakes security made than any issues with space law or SoP, and I say that as someone who supports the idea of a specific law regarding genetic powers.