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  1. I also believe that the communities opinion should at least be voiced. Currently this is not done all that well. I get that time and such is a constraint but a voting system will reduce said constraint because you can easily poll the opinion of the players. As for to make it reliable. Make it so that active players (X hours in Y months) can vote for it. They are the ones who actually play the game and are affected by the changes. A more transparent system will also help. Why is X implemented. What are the alternatives. Who were consulted prior etc. This doesn't have to be for minor things but overall I feel that paradise lacks this big time.
  2. Why is this a thing. I do feel dirty because of it
  3. Having played a bit more and thought about it. From the normal crew perspective (security and antags mostly) 1. The RNG needs to go or at least be reduced. People can stand up at random or just die instantly. This makes the game feel unfair and random. Which it is. 2. Have a set damage threshold at which point people die guaranteed. Once again. People won't die or go down, making it extremely annoying if you unload a full clip into somebody and they keep happily walking around disarming you. 3. The system is still quite incompatible with the existing systems. Take no breath from genetics. Unless it changed without me seeing it. You will be immune to most damage that the new crit system does. Take self resp and mind restoration from virology. These make it so that people stand up even more. Even though they are far over the -200 health mark. I know how genetics is dealth with and I don't want virology to undergo this fate as well. From medbays perspective: 1. Chemistry is quite useless due to the fact that the vendors are stocked to the brim with meds. Reducing the amount of stuff in there will help make chemistry relevant again. Although this would also mean that medbay is heavily reliant on chemistry. Even more so than before new crit and such. Other than that I don't know. The system mostly feels as extra annoying steps mostly for all sides. It doesn't work with the existing systems and changing them requires a lot of work and will most likely lead to a nerf or worse... removal of stuff without adding new features. My to go to thing would still be revert but well that won't happen. And fixing the points above here would just mean going back to old crit but with heart attacks being more common.
  4. More like that. In game design it's a big no no to make things relly to much on RNG. A bit of RNG is fine to spice things up but the system currently relies to much on RNG to make it work. Thanks ?. I will try to thinker of some ways to improve the system when I got some more time.
  5. My opinion about new crit didn't really change much since the last few PR's about it. 1. People don't go down anymore in combat. You have to stun them or just fuck them up so badly that they drop. Meaning killing is needed more. I've seen people (myself included) stand up after getting shot 5 times with buckshot. I stood up after getting bit 20 times by terror spiders just to get bitten 20 times more before I finally died. Last one is fixed by a snowflake way as far as I know. 2. The idea of having a chance to walk away from danger when you're dying is not happening. If you're fucked up it means you're either in combat or you're in space. In other words you will die. And screaming for help won't work due to the oxygen loss you have. 3. It make medbay slightly more complex. But at the same time it's just a few more steps which will bottleneck medbay. Chemistry is not needed due to the vendors being stocked up fully. And if you don't have them stocked up fully then medbay will fall down due to the fact that most chemists can't keep up. 4. For antags it's a pain as well. If you get out alive in combat you will die after. First you just had to get surgery. Now you just die from shock or something. Making antagging much harder. Same goes for being an officer. All in all I don't think it adds possitive things to the game as a whole. It's more tedious now mostly and dead feels random due to the RNG nature of shock, heart failure and heart attacks. (triggering is random but weighted on the damage).
  6. Sounds more fitting aye. I've changed the idea so it needs spaceacillin now. 15u of vaccine (1 bottle) now require 15u of spaceacillin. This is mostly due to the missing interaction between the crew and the virologist at the moment. This will force them to seek out a "willing" test subject or they can't release more complex viruses. It's also a debuff for antag virologists due to the fact they will have to experiment on themselves first and have the cure prepared. But all in all I'd say it'll make a few nice stories out of this. Local virologist experimented on himself. Forgot to bring a cure. Infects local crew with the greytide virus
  7. Atropine is in the vendors last I played. With new crit that is. I'm in favor of something like this. Will make it clearer what is required to threat shock, cardiac failure and cardiac arrest as well due to it being in a kit together.
  8. Sounds as a legit change. Made a PR for it. https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/11156 Thanks for the find!
  9. Might include this one in Idea 3. So that some unlocks will do this. Does sound like a real neat idea. This one will also be for after the 4 PR's are done so we have the basis there for expension
  10. I see where you're coming at with the first suggestion. The cure per blood type would be a bit to much I think personally. Would clog up the chemists and will mostly be just tedious work. I'll keep it into consideration though. The vaccine per species is also an interesting one. I'll keep this one in mind for a possible later PR. I might make a second rework for the event viruses and then I might include that idea into it. The fuel idea is pretty neat. It would make viruses more complicated for the average crewmember though. Maybe make it passively do something and when it contacts a chemical it will do something else extra or work better? Or it will do something negative so you can counter virus users by forcefully injecting chemicals into them. I'm gonna think a bit more about this one. Thanks for the feedback!
  11. Aye that is a cool way of doing it. I'll implement that once this virus rework is fully done (in this form or another). Since our current virology doesn't really go well with that.
  12. I'm for making the events more interesting. Although I'll keep these PR's to the scope of advanced viruses first.
  13. Aye the idea is that there is a soul attached to the body.
  14. Hey all. Virology at it's current state is not that interesting or complex anymore. The viruses created will do minor things at best and it can done in the time a new engineer takes to set up the engine. The interaction between the crew and the virologist is also minimal. As in the virologist will break into chemistry to get sugar and mutagen and then he'll PDA or scream at the crew that the virus is done. I've put a few ideas down below and I need some feedback on them. They come in sort of a package and will rely on one another in some way or form. Revision version 0.5: 19-5-2019 (idea 12 changed and idea 1 added to PR 1, PR 1 made on github) 0.4: 3-4-2019 (idea 12 changed and idea 1 added to PR 1, PR 1 made on github) 0.3: 26-3-2019 0.2: 24-3-2019 0.1: 23-3-2019 Short summary The ideas discussed here are there to make virology more interesting and complex. They will also buff virology due to the useless effect it has currently on the station. A humanoid can only have one virus max in his body. This virus can have more symptoms than currently possible (6), it is still limited by a stat called stability. The virus will be harder to cure and harder to make. The virologist will have to do actual tests to see what symptom is created and will need to have a test subject to create more virus samples. The working and creation of the virus is made less random in nature by removing annoying randomness elements. The symptoms in the virus will be more reliant on the stats of the virus and symptoms can be suppressed so they can be used for their stat boost. For the virologist this means that his job is a lot more complicated and interesting if he wants it to be. Simple viruses can still be made for the new virologists. The virologist will also have to find a test subject or be extremely well prepared to make more complex viruses. For the crew this means that virology can provide a boon to the station once more but that they have to be wary of just taking a pill due to the more dangerous and mysterious nature of virology. Current problems Virology lacks a lot of depth currently (after nerf). Adding side effects has little to no mechanical effect except for drasks etc. The beneficial viruses don’t need stats other than a bit of speed for the toxic filtering. Lethal viruses are usually not allowed normally due to the hijack rules. Virology is overal based on randomness. The creation and the symptoms themselves Virology is very secluded from the rest of the station. Once you have some extra mutagen and sugar you’re good to go for 8 minutes and then you’re done. (currently) Ideas Globally Advanced viruses will kill other advanced viruses in your body. In practice this will lead to only one active advanced virus. Which one survives depends on the resistance stat of the existing one and the speed stat of the new one. Advanced viruses can have more symptoms contained in them. The amount of symptoms will be limited by a stat called stability. If the stability is below 0 upon creation it’ll start mutating once it infected somebody. Symptoms will generally lower this stat but some will increase it. Maybe include stable mutagen to increase the cap once adding a new symptom. Give symptoms more reliance on stats. Give them milestones when they activate extra symptoms. TG style. Add the ability to suppress a symptom but it’ll still influence the stats of the virus. Add more chemicals and link less symptoms to each symptom level. This reduces the randomness. Add the ability to make the pandemic remember singleton viruses. And have it add them to a virus at a cost, 5 times the specialised chemical needed. The PANDEMIC is limited in the amount it can add to a virus. This limit is 4 at round start and will increase 1 per science upgrade. Once you add a chemical to a virus it does not tell you which symptom is in there. The pandemic will give a set of possible symptoms (real one and 1 or 2 random symptoms). You have to put it in a monkey and have it get to a stage before the pandemic will show it. Adds a bit of uncertainty and more interaction with the world. (Also make those monkeys suffer). Removing symptoms does show on the pandemic. Reduce the amount of RNG in symptom activation. Make them act on a set timer instead. Maybe randomise the timer a bit. But this will ensure that it atleast procs once. The timer speed are dependent on the speed stat. This will make the speed stat more important thus making the choices in the creation more important. Viruses can’t be duplicated by the pandemic without them being evolved first. The virus sample needs to be put into a monkey first and evolve to stage 3. After that the monkeys blood can be used to create new virus samples using the pandemic. More advanced viruses, over 5 symptoms will require a humanoid (with a soul) test subject. So either the virologist can make a sacrifice for science and be the test subject or he can find a greytider who is willing to “cooperate”. Maybe add a bonus for the first infected, increased speeds stat or such. Will make being a volunteer more rewarding. Analysers give information depending on the stage of the virus and the stats. Meaning the cure won’t be available instantly. The pandemic will give the information if the virus is fully evolved prior to infection. (Idea 7) Make viruses harder to cure if they are well made. Viruses currently are piss easy to cure and to make a vaccine for. Have more cures in the list of cures. Make it depend on more stats. (Unlocked amount of chems needed?) Make vaccines harder to make. Make the pandemic accept spaceacillin which it can store internally. This is used to create vaccines. Every 15u of vaccine (1 bottle) now requires 15u of spaceacillin. This will make it harder to pump out vaccines once the virus is cured. Ideas detailed 1. One virus to rule them all Advanced viruses will kill other advanced viruses in your body. In practice this will lead to only one active advanced virus. Which one survives depends on the resistance stat of the existing one and the speed stat of the new one. This is more a balance than anything. It’ll prevent multiple viruses and will keep the code easier to balance. It will also make creating a counter virus to cure the other virus viable. Anti bodies will ensure that a virus can't be countered by another virus. 2. Symptom limit This is here to increase the time required to make a good virus. It’ll also make virology that much more interesting since you will have to balance out the symptoms which you want to use. Certain symptoms should increase the stability but do something bad in return (notifying the host something is wrong or other stuff). If a virus is created that has negative stability it’ll mutate while in the process of growing to its final stage. Leaning towards more stable symptoms and removing unstable ones. If a virus is injected with to low of a stability (-3) it’ll just die in the host. This prevents really unstable viruses from occurring and this making balancing the stabilisation mutation process easier. To achieve more symptoms you’ll have to include stable mutagen in the virus sample. Every 1u will increase the limit by 1. The mutation will remove the stable mutagen from the mix. 3. Stats Using the ideas of TG: Every symptom will unlock a new effect once it hits a certain amount of a stat. For example. If it hits X stealth it’ll suppress the symptom notifiers to the host. Or when X speed is hit it’ll have a more aggressive effect. 4. Suppressing Using a chemical you can suppress a random symptom it’s effects. Making a side effect a booster. The suppressed symptom will be less effective than the regular version but it won’t have effects. (Unless the virus becomes unstable. Then it can mutate out of the suppresses state.?) The suppressing can be done using the PANDEMIC. This way it’s not/less random but costs more. And viruses will keep the suppressed symptoms while getting new symptoms. 5. More chemicals Idea is simple. Add more chemicals that generate more levels of symptoms. Instead of 6 levels you’d have 10 or more. Each level containing about 3-4 symptoms max. This reduces RNG which everybody hates. 6. PANDEMIC recreate symptoms Using this it actually feels like you’re designing a virus. Adding symptoms together using a machine. This will remove the current mixing of viruses. You can still make a virus with the chemicals but this is more RNG based. Adding a symptom using the machine will have a higher cost, 5 of the specialised chemicals required for that level at the start and upgrades will decrease the cost 0.5 per upgrade. To include a symptom to the machine you have to isolate it and load it into the pandemic using a button press. This won’t destroy the sample. At the round start the PANDEMIC can only add up to 4 symptoms to the virus. The pandemic will contain a manipulator which upgraded will Decrease the cost to add a symptom, a scanning module which will increase the ability to add more symptoms and a matter bin which will increase the amount of chemicals it can hold. At the start the PANDEMIC will have 2 symptoms available to create a virus with. Sneeze and Cough. And the PANDEMIC will be able to generate 1st and 2nd level symptoms for free. Since virus food is freely available. 7. Symptom chance The idea is that if you add a chemical to a virus it’ll still randomly create a symptom. But this symptom is not yet clear upon generation. It has to be put into a monkey first and it has to reach stage 3 before it becomes clear to the PANDEMIC. This will increase the experimental feeling of virology. It is important that the amount of symptoms per chemical is low enough since this process takes way longer than the current process. The PANDEMIC will show a set of possible symptoms, the real one and one or two fake ones. Once the virus hits stage 3 it’ll discover the symptom. The removal of symptoms still is known to the pandemic. The suppression (discussed in the Suppressing topic) of the symptom will also be known if the symptom is known. 8. Symptom RNG proc reduction Have it activate after a random time instead of having it activate on a random chance. This time will be influenced by the speed stat of the virus. This will reduce some of the randomness of the virus procs. This will also make the speed stat more important when designing a virus. Meaning the virologist will have to make choices. 9. No virus creation before hatching This will mostly nerf virology a bit but make it feel more like an actual job where you experiment with viruses. This also means that the more complex viruses won’t have their cure known till it’s fully evolved. Meaning the injected subject will be in danger unless the virologist is prepared to cure the victim. It will also mean that viruses will need to be evolved before being able to make a new sample of said virus. 10. Less info on health analyzers The health analyzers give info depending on the stage of the virus. A 1st level stage will only show that the virus is there (if the stealth stat is low enough). 2nd level will show the spread type of the virus. The 3th will show the name. The 4th will show the cure. 11. Harder to cure viruses Make viruses harder to cure since now you can easily brute force your way through the list and cure all viruses. Stealthy ones means that they have the top 4 cures and non stealthy ones just have the cure wide open. The new system will use more stats to generate a cure. A high enough resistance level will increase the amount of chemicals needed to cure the virus. Then it’ll use the combined stats to choose a second chemical that will be required. And it’ll reduce the “level” of the first symptom respectively. This means it won’t be “gold” and “salt” for instance. But more like “teporone” and “spaceacillin”. 12. Make vaccines harder to make Make vaccines harder to make. Make the pandemic accept spaceacillin which it can store internally. This is used to create vaccines. Every 15u of vaccine (1 bottle) now requires 15u of spaceacillin. This will make it harder to pump out vaccines once the virus is cured. The amount of spaceacillin is shown when you examine the machine at first (later might change to a menu thing). 13 Less info on the pandemic prior to hatching Addition on 10. The pandemic will now also not show the traits unless the virus is hatched. In other words you can't cheese idea 7 by pre calculating the stats it'll get when you get a certain symptom. Implementation strategy The new ideas will use most of the currently existing mechanics of virology. Meaning they are mostly additions to the code. If I were to split this up into multiple PR’s I’d do it like this: PR 1. Less RNG and more experimentation feel https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/11220 Implement idea 8 (Symptom RNG proc reduction), 9 (No virus creation before hatching), 10 (Less info on health analyzers), 1 (One virus to rule them all) and 12 (Make vaccines harder to make). I’m leaving 7 (Symptom chance) out of this due to the time it’ll take for a virus to be created with the large amount of symptoms currently heaped up in the levels. Looking at you level 4 symptoms. 8 will be implemented to make viruses feel more stable in working. Currently they are purely random and can heal you to full or not heal you at all. 9 will be implemented to make virology feel more interesting and 10 will be needed for this due to the fact that a cure can be used to find out what symptoms are in the virus. 1 is added to make counter viruses viable solutions to a virologist spreading a virus. And it will also make infecting one self to hatch a virus more viable if you have prepared a suitable virus. 12 is added to make virology more needing to go out into the world and get samples of cured crew members and to make viruses that much more dangerous. PR 2. More spread out symptoms and even more experimentation This will implement idea 5 (More chemicals), 7 (Symptom chance) and partially 6 (PANDEMIC recreate symptoms). 5 will be needed for 7 to work without causing too much frustration. And will make the virologist interact more with the crew due to the need for chemicals. This PR will also implement 13 (Less info on the pandemic prior to hatching). 6 will be implemented partially. It won’t include the upgrades just yet. PR 3. The antag virology update This will implement idea 3 (Stats), 4 (Suppressing) and 11 (Harder to cure viruses). 3 will be implemented to make the existing symptoms more interesting. 4 will be coupled with this to achieve the needed stats. 11 will be added to compliment to the idea of 4. The antag virology update? Yes since in this stage beneficial viruses still will have all 6 beneficial symptoms in them. Only real changes to viruses will be in the non beneficial ones. PR 4. The end Implement 2 (Symptom limit) and the remainder of 6 (PANDEMIC recreate symptoms). This PR will be there to finalise the virology rework. Making viruses truly interesting again. In this update both beneficial and non beneficial viruses will be buffed due to the limit of symptoms changing. Extra ideas Chemical fuel for virus symptoms (suggested by BeanOS) Certain symptoms have chemicals that activate an extra feature in the virus. This may range from more efficient working to another effect. These effects might also be negative so you can counter virus users by injecting chemicals. Viruses generate "fuel" when reaching certain stats (suggested by TDS) Expansion upon idea 3. Certain viruses will create fuel used by the idea above.
  15. In the current virology code it works like this: All virusses are called one another to activate. When they activate they activate all their symptoms one after another. All symptoms theirselfs do their thing. This seems fine and mostly is. Untill you have 3 virusses with toxic filtering in all 3. Then you get situations like I had one shift. You can space walk indefinitely. I spend half my shift in space. No suit no air. All completely fine. I'm not gonna include my virus but it was quite minmaxed and included all beneficial symptoms. I don't believe this is in anyway balanced and it's easily exploitable. If not abused by an antag it'll make the crew nearly unkillable unless you apply big burts of damage on them. My suggestion is to make it so that symptoms only activate once. It'll take the best working contained in the 3 virusses and activates this one. This will reduce the healing potential from say Toxic filtering from maximal 27.7 points of damaged healed per activation to about 11. This is still alot but this is the maximum possible if you min max the virus. This includes adding side effects and making one dedicated virus for toxic healing. Coding wise this is doable but requires a refacter of the activation code. I'd like advise on this matter since I love virology but this is just to much healing. Way to much.