Splgrk

So why exactly did IPCs have to be nerfed massively?

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Fursamie, I don't think you understand how different in scope the examples I listed are compared to what you are suggesting.

Ever read the code? Ever tried to understand how different they are?

And yes, IPC drinks and processable chem is a terrible idea.

Why don't you try removing it and see what's the reaction around here?

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You can do your part to fix a dead human in less than 30 seconds.

Just throw them in cloning. Alternatively, patch, defib, and throw them in cryo.

 

Easy.

 

Fixing IPCs, on the other hand, is much harder:

  • Health analyzers don't work on them. The only analyzer that does is the cyborg analyzer, and robotics has the only one of those. Assuming they haven't lost it.
  • Repairing damage on them generally requires special surgery, either one surgery per damaged body part (including internal organ parts), or nanopaste (which may not be available), or both. Last time I fixed an IPC damaged by EMP, I think I did over a dozen surgeries on them to try to fix them. Again, if they were a human I'd have thrown them in cloning in less than 30 seconds.
  • The process for repairing IPCs is used rarely enough that even the people who've done it before need to look it up for a refresher before doing it again. This makes it even slower.

 

In theory, yes, IPCs are easy to repair.

In practice, I've found reviving a dead IPC is extremely time-consuming and difficult compared to reviving a human.

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And even seasoned roboticists occasionally forget to put an organ in, because they are not immediately obvious. I once had a new body built for my brain that didn't have a charger, so I spent the entire shift walking at half speed when the roboticist went into cryo. 

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8 hours ago, Ansari said:

Fursamie, I don't think you understand how different in scope the examples I listed are compared to what you are suggesting.

Ever read the code? Ever tried to understand how different they are?

And yes, IPC drinks and processable chem is a terrible idea.

Why don't you try removing it and see what's the reaction around here?

Like I have said, I do not code nor understand it. This is from my perspective, as someone who does not code.

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9 hours ago, Ansari said:

Fursamie, I don't think you understand how different in scope the examples I listed are compared to what you are suggesting.

Ever read the code? Ever tried to understand how different they are?

And yes, IPC drinks and processable chem is a terrible idea.

Why don't you try removing it and see what's the reaction around here?

Actually, I'd be fine with IPC drinks gone. Probably preferable, even? But then, there is some kind of mystical superversion of SS13 in my head where every species reacts to every food and chemical differently because they have different biologies. 

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Something to remember here is that IPCs are just one race among many.

When a system like genetics, or IPC only chems, is added, it means there's a bunch of code unique to said race. This generally means that, in the code, there has to be a check to see what race someone is every time said system is used - whether it's every time they take a drink, or are put in a genetics machine, etc.

This makes extra work every time a system touches them. It could be surgery, virology, chemicals, etc. A coder now has to factor IPCs in to these and then make sure the code does or doesn't affect them in the way it's intended to. 

IPCs are already a headache for this. Now imagine if we made every race have unique chemicals/genetics/etc. That'd increase the amount of coding work needed to be done for trivial things immensely. What could normally be done in 3-5 lines of code would be multiplied by the number of races we have. On top of that, the amount of potential bugs skyrockets. Then there's trying to work out the balance impacts.

If possible, this can be somewhat mitigated by moving some of the handling to organs and other places. Skrell livers are a good example of this. 

However, IPCs already have way more unique code and mechanics around them than any other race. Possibly more than every other race combined.  Adding more complexity and headaches to the code for one race that is already full to the brim with snowflaked mechanics just generally is not a good idea. If we were to give the same level of complexity to every race that IPCs have already got, the code would be an even worse clusterfuck to deal with. 

Changing already existing mechanics is easy and doesn't increase complexity. Simple damage multipliers, etc, are quite easy. Things like adding oil are actually bringing them more back in line with other races, and IIRC the code that did so made it easier to make any race have alternate blood, or take different damage from blood loss. 

But an entire genetics/upgrade system would be a hell of a lot of work and complexity, that would only be added to one race, while making the overall code for all of genetics/etc much harder to deal with for everything else. 

 

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On 11/14/2018 at 3:20 PM, Pennwick said:

I wanted to put some hard numbers down here but I realized just going on code theory wasn't a sound way to make an argument since I could easily be wrong. I'll try to put together a test sever so I can test things more empirically.

I ended up doing those hard numbers tests and thought I'd share the results. Some of them surprised even me.

Comparisons will be between IPC, Humans, and Robotic Limbed Humans ('RLH's). All three are available from roundstart. Augmented limbs are seperate and can't be chosen at roundstart.

Firstly is damage differences, Humans take x1, Humans with robot limbs take .66x, and IPC take >1.5x. I'll also include damage values in toolboxings('TB's) to reach these thresholds. A toolbox hits for 10 damage on a standard human.

Human hands and feet break at 15(1.5 Toolboxes), Arms and legs at 30(3 TB), Groin chest and head at 35(3.5 TB).

Robotic limbs start to malfunction at 10 damage (.66 TBs for IPC, 1.5 TBs for RLH). This causes a drop of the item, scaling with damage.

Human limbs are only dismembered after their reach their damage cap and even then only with a chance when hit with a sharp object.

Robotic limbs are lost immediately when they hit their damage cap. For hands/feet its 30, (2 TBs for IPC, 5 TBs for RLH), and 50 for arm/leg/head (~3.5 for IPC, ~8 for RLH) At this point the limb is dropped and all damage that was on the limb is transfered up to the next limb.

EMP damage is actually the same between the two, minus the internal damage and having 3 more zones on the IPC. A Severity 2 EMP with wound both pretty significantly. And a Severity 1 will kill both. Though now that I think about it I only tested with a chemistry(50/50) EMP grenade. Other sources might function slightly differently. The numbers weren't at all what I expected nor were the results. I had suspected the IPC to Die from both and the human to be at most crit by the Severity 1. However it can at least be said with some certainty that EMP damage is not influenced by the racial damage penalty for IPC.

Edited by Pennwick
Changed wording of EMP conclusion.
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On 11/18/2018 at 11:50 AM, Allfd said:

A PR to add an organ based capabilities system was shot down by the IPC community recently.  It would have been a prerequisite to such a system, allowing for customization of body parts with upgrades.

I want to say, the IPC community was rather united against the nerf, not the PR as a whole. Hell, most liked the PR, save for the nerf.

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15 hours ago, tzo said:

In theory, yes, IPCs are easy to repair.

In practice, I've found reviving a dead IPC is extremely time-consuming and difficult compared to reviving a human.

A good way I've found to summarize it up is usually:

It's easy to get materials to repair IPCs, but a pain in the ass to do the repairs.
It's hard to get the materials to heal a human, but easy to do with those.

Everything needed to fix an IPC is pretty much available in public access rooms, things you get from cargo or are in toolboxes all over the station. Easy to find, but doing the repairs, like tzo said, is really a slow process that most people don't seem to know how to do. IPCs NEED surgery past a certain threshold cuz of internal structural damage once over a damage cap.  I know IPC repairs off the top of my head usually, but even I sometimes fuck 'em up or stumble over one I do rarely. An that was before the "IPCs bleed oil" thing Iunno how it is after that.

Conversely, the stuff to heal humans is hard to get hold of, mostly being limited to the Medical department itself or from Chemistry, and are not handed out willy-nilly.  But the process of healing them is easy as pie. Slap on a synthflesh patch, dump into cryo, clone, defib, etc. are all easy.  Even surgeries are mitigated by the fact you only really ever have to do surgery for things like broken bones or internal organ/bleeding, due to aforementioned Cryo an such, so you memorize those handfuls and you're really set unless something unusual pops in.  Again, I know most of those surgeries by heart, being someone that played a lot of medical and a lot of IPC, I screw up meat surgery far less then metal surgery

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3 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

A good way I've found to summarize it up is usually:

It's easy to get materials to repair IPCs, but a pain in the ass to do the repairs.
It's hard to get the materials to heal a human, but easy to do with those.

Everything needed to fix an IPC is pretty much available in public access rooms, things you get from cargo or are in toolboxes all over the station. Easy to find, but doing the repairs, like tzo said, is really a slow process that most people don't seem to know how to do. IPCs NEED surgery past a certain threshold cuz of internal structural damage once over a damage cap.  I know IPC repairs off the top of my head usually, but even I sometimes fuck 'em up or stumble over one I do rarely. An that was before the "IPCs bleed oil" thing Iunno how it is after that.

Conversely, the stuff to heal humans is hard to get hold of, mostly being limited to the Medical department itself or from Chemistry, and are not handed out willy-nilly.  But the process of healing them is easy as pie. Slap on a synthflesh patch, dump into cryo, clone, defib, etc. are all easy.  Even surgeries are mitigated by the fact you only really ever have to do surgery for things like broken bones or internal organ/bleeding, due to aforementioned Cryo an such, so you memorize those handfuls and you're really set unless something unusual pops in.  Again, I know most of those surgeries by heart, being someone that played a lot of medical and a lot of IPC, I screw up meat surgery far less then metal surgery

Really I find them pretty equal in complexity. Never have to worry about bones in the way. Fixing organs is done with a screwdriver, pulling them out is a multitool. Damage can only reach the 'too severe' cap on the torso, everything else will fall off before that cap. And Nanopaste can always be used regardless of the damage level. They can't use cryo but a recharger will fix all external damage IF its upgraded. Though the one public recharger gets skipped over pretty often and its not obvious to most when they've been upgraded. Unlike Cryo which is the first stop for 75% of the tide as they run past the doctors and hop into the tubes themselves.

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10 hours ago, Dinarzad said:


Everything needed to fix an IPC is pretty much available in public access rooms, things you get from cargo or are in toolboxes all over the station. Easy to find, but doing the repairs, like tzo said, is really a slow process that most people don't seem to know how to do. IPCs NEED surgery past a certain threshold cuz of internal structural damage once over a damage cap.  I know IPC repairs off the top of my head usually, but even I sometimes fuck 'em up or stumble over one I do rarely. An that was before the "IPCs bleed oil" thing Iunno how it is after that.

That's how it used to be. Now there's exactly one source of oil on the station and that's robotics. 

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17 minutes ago, Splgrk said:

Now there's exactly one source of oil on the station and that's robotics.

Cargo can also order oil.

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Let's knock off the snark, shall we? I provided you information where you can also get oil.

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