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Thoughts on an x-ray nerf?

Does x-ray need a nerf?  

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Ya'll need to get better at losing and dying. I probably get xray in sec once every 15-20 rounds. I get killed by cheesy shit antags do every 4 or 5. Get over yourselves lol

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3 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Ya'll need to get better at losing and dying. I probably get xray in sec once every 15-20 rounds. I get killed by cheesy shit antags do every 4 or 5. Get over yourselves lol

I wouldn't mind losing fairly, but what you just said "Cheesy" is exactly what Xray is. Its like playing against Counter-Strike:Source wall-hackers, its not fun at all.

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Just now, Slith-Skaar said:

I wouldn't mind losing fairly, but what you just said "Cheesy" is exactly what Xray is. Its like playing against Counter-Strike:Source wall-hackers, its not fun at all.

We all die and have our rounds ended unfairly regularly. We all can give a list of habits, strategies, or equipment other players use that we don't find fun. Thats just how this game is.

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7 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

We all die and have our rounds ended unfairly regularly. We all can give a list of habits, strategies, or equipment other players use that we don't find fun. Thats just how this game is.

 

Are you arguing that's a good thing? I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

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You can not honestly justify things like Lockboxes on RnD weapons and then turn around and say X-ray is okay.

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1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

Ya'll need to get better at losing and dying. I probably get xray in sec once every 15-20 rounds. I get killed by cheesy shit antags do every 4 or 5. Get over yourselves lol

Im glad this was brought up, since I wanted to mention it but felt my post was already too long. It seems likely the reason xray isn't touched is that antags have  a lot of cheese, so xray cheese is looked at to a counter antag cheese. That leads into a looping cycle where cheese for both parties is justified based on the other having it.

I understand and can relate to that way of thinking, the problem is xrays are not a counter to antag cheese. The only thing xrays will do is lead to instant taze and cuff on newer/mediocre antag (at least in my experience) players that don't understand how you saw them most of the time. Robust antag players using cheesy methods will probably already know you have it, and be taking steps around it, which usually involves becoming a full on stealth turtle or systematically killing officers. Xrays add nothing to the round except stomping on newer players that probably were going to get stomped on without it. Seems like a net negative to me.

But then again, xrays only come once in a while, so who cares right? If they do come, go get killed/use a cheesy strategy, and hop into the next round which will probably be more fun. Same can be said for someone using antag cheese. I get the idea, and it works. But should that really discount any discussion about fixing the problem at its roots?

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47 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

 

Are you arguing that's a good thing? I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

My original post I said was people need to get better at losing and dying. Everyone dies sometimes. Everyone loses sometimes. And its sometimes unfair. If you removed everything that led to people dying and losing unfairly the game wouldn't exist as is so...yea I guess its a good thing that it happens?

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21 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

My original post I said was people need to get better at losing and dying. Everyone dies sometimes. Everyone loses sometimes. And its sometimes unfair. If you removed everything that led to people dying and losing unfairly the game wouldn't exist as is so...yea I guess its a good thing that it happens?

I'm just really interested in trying to understand your mindset because it seems really contradictory. I mean, I've seen you argue against security officers taping their boots or even traveling in pairs, but you want them to have X-ray? Why are you applying the idea of being okay with dying randomly to antags, but not to security? Because security are far less likely to die in ways they can't see coming if they have X-ray.  The same argument you're making to keep X-ray because antags need to be more comfortable with dying could be reversed to argue it should be removed because security needs to be more comfortable with dying.

Edited by EvadableMoxie

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3 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

So, let me pose a follow up question: Do you believe there should be more things that lead to people dying randomly, less things that lead to people dying randomly, or did we happen to somehow find the perfect balance of completely unfair and arbitrary deaths? 

I'm just really interested in trying to understand your mindset because it seems really contradictory. I mean, I've seen you argue against security officers taping their boots or even traveling in pairs, but you want them to have X-ray?

I think player behavior leads to things being unfair more than anything, and you cannot correct that regardless of how many features you add or remove.

My mindset is not contradictory. People tape their boots and travel in pairs for the same reason people want xray removed. They are afraid of dying and losing. I never argued taped boots need to be removed, I just don't think they need to be used every single round. I also don't think xray needs to be used every single time its found. I've declined xray at times for the sake of helping the round (like if I know the antags are struggling, there is no need to give myself more of an advantage). Many people demonstrate that they care more about winning and surviving by giving themselves as many advantages as possible regardless of how the round is going. That's just behavior.

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1 minute ago, ZN23X said:

I think player behavior leads to things being unfair more than anything, and you cannot correct that regardless of how many features you add or remove.

Adding and removing features will never result in perfect behavior, no, but it certainly can improve behavior. Changing rules or mechanics are the only meaningful way to change player behavior.

I agree with you that players should be more okay with their characters dying.  I think that's great advice and I wish more people would take it instead of being salty. But to me that's really more about them reacting to being randomly killed, rather than expecting them to act differently in ways that are more likely to result in them being killed.

The reason for that is roleplay. I like making rounds interesting, but I want to do that in a way that is internally consistent with the universe. I'm not afraid of my character dying, but my character certainly is afraid of death.  Would any rational person with a fear of death turn down X-ray? As long as X-ray is in the game, whenever I'm offered it, I have to choose between roleplaying a rational character with a fear of death who would absolutely take X-ray every time, versus my own desire to make the round interesting.  I don't like being placed in that position.  I'd rather my character just didn't have that option.

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49 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

I think player behavior leads to things being unfair more than anything, and you cannot correct that regardless of how many features you add or remove.

My mindset is not contradictory. People tape their boots and travel in pairs for the same reason people want xray removed. They are afraid of dying and losing. I never argued taped boots need to be removed, I just don't think they need to be used every single round. I also don't think xray needs to be used every single time its found. I've declined xray at times for the sake of helping the round (like if I know the antags are struggling, there is no need to give myself more of an advantage). Many people demonstrate that they care more about winning and surviving by giving themselves as many advantages as possible regardless of how the round is going. That's just behavior.

On one hand I agree, in so much as I avoid taking X-ray unless the situation is dire, but I appreciate that's not how people think normally. But on the other hand changing peoples behaviour is next to impossible unless its enforced in some meaningful way.

 

With regards to dying, to me dying isn't the issue. It's how I died that leaves me salty. I've been wordlessly killed by antags as collateral damage enough times that makes the whole role-playing thing just not fun.

Honestly, I'm keen on removing Greentext at all. I want to see how having no real failure state effects how people play and maybe discourage more powergaming mentalities.

 

Edited by Aletmagne

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I would honestly be fine with xray being removed from regular player use.  It is one of those "I win" buttons people rush to get if possible.

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"If you die just suck it up, and play another round" is also well...harder to swallow when it comes to antag rounds. Because your next antag round might be ten rounds from now, a week from now, who knows when. Get killed as sec? Sure whatever you'll get 3 more shifts as sec that day if you want. Getting antag is both somewhat rare and RNG, so getting a round 'ruined' by cheesy methods feels worse for the player.

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1 hour ago, TDS said:

"If you die just suck it up, and play another round" is also well...harder to swallow when it comes to antag rounds. Because your next antag round might be ten rounds from now, a week from now, who knows when. Get killed as sec? Sure whatever you'll get 3 more shifts as sec that day if you want. Getting antag is both somewhat rare and RNG, so getting a round 'ruined' by cheesy methods feels worse for the player.

I rarely succeed as antag and I bet I roll antag a hell of alot less than most people (I'm usually a cling/vamp/traitor once every few month). Granted I dont CARE if I succeed so I actually play antag in a way usually eventually gets me caught or killed. I do find it even more funny that people who probably get to play more rounds in a day than I play in a week or a month complaining about thier rounds being ruined. Like if I play 2 rounds this week and both get ruined it means all the time I spent on the game this week was wasted. Shit happens. Then you have someone who in 1 day, plays a dozen rounds, 1/3 of them go bad for them and they complain. Its humorous.

Also @EvadableMoxie do you honestly think most people give themself an advantage for RP purposes cuz IC its irrational to do otherwise or do you think they are just treating this like another video game they are trying to win?

As security I actually get more annoyed by antags doing the same boring stuff over and over again rather than my round ending. And I'm not stupid enough to beleive that Xray is the one thing that is holding antags back from doing something different from thier repetitive safe routines at nauseum.

Edited by ZN23X
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47 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Also @EvadableMoxie do you honestly think most people give themself an advantage for RP purposes cuz IC its irrational to do otherwise or do you think they are just treating this like another video game they are trying to win?

I don't know, I can't tell you what someone else's motivations are.  I can tell you that it doesn't matter, though.  It doesn't matter to the people who had a round that was no fun at all what my motivations are, the outcome for them is identical either way.

 

53 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

As security I actually get more annoyed by antags doing the same boring stuff over and over again rather than my round ending. And I'm not stupid enough to beleive that Xray is the one thing that is holding antags back from doing something different from thier repetitive safe routines at nauseum.

You're right, it won't.  What will is actually changing things.

If we want cheese on both sides fixed, then we need to actually do something about it. Removing X-ray means one less cheese tactic.  It's a step in the right direction. We all seem to agree X-ray is powergamey, right?  And we all seem to agree powergamey mechanics are bad, right? You yourself say you rarely take advantage of it even when available so that suggest to me that you on some level at least agree it's not really a good thing. So where does this suddenly 180 to fight tooth and nail to protect powergamey mechanics that are bad come from?

I feels like every single time anyone tries to fix anything the conversation goes like this:

"So, X is really cheesy and lame right?"

"Yup."

"And we'd all be better off if people didn't do it, right?"

"Yup."

"So, we should nerf or remove X, right?"

"Nope."

 

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I don't know. It's literally combo with dark-vision in disguise. Make it like traitor thermal vision google or something might be just fine.

And now that I've said it change its name as well to Thermal Vision instead of X-ray Vision. What are you. Looking for other's skeletons?

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4 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

So where does this suddenly 180 to fight tooth and nail to protect powergamey mechanics that are bad come from?

This isn't me fighting tooth and nail to protect something. You seem to think I actually care if xray is in the game or not. I don't. I hate that I need to keep referring to my original post, but I just said people need to get better at dying and losing. And since then I've had to elaborate as to why I think that. I don't care if xray is removed or nerfed. I also dont think its going to solve the problems this server has with people playing to win too much. You cannot remove enough features to correct this behavior. If you did then this game would be a shell of what it currently is. Its also annoying seeing players who regularly use cheesy tactics that aren't fun for others or ruin others rounds unfairly crying about how this does that to them. Its selfish and hypocritical.

I'll leave it at that. Wasted enough time explaining myself already. Proceed.

Edited by ZN23X

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I am of mixed mind, X-Ray is kinda power gaming, but removing pressure from Antags I don't think will result in more creativity if only done in a few areas.  I think ultimately a change in incentives is needed to effect behavior.  A focus on RP, which means not just throwing antags into perma and forgetting about them, and a change in objectives would be needed. 

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5 hours ago, Allfd said:

I am of mixed mind, X-Ray is kinda power gaming, but removing pressure from Antags I don't think will result in more creativity if only done in a few areas.  I think ultimately a change in incentives is needed to effect behavior.  A focus on RP, which means not just throwing antags into perma and forgetting about them, and a change in objectives would be needed. 

I think something important here is, I think you're right, I think that's gonna be needed too but I also feel that this will help. A change of mindset might also be needed, but this will still help, plus it frees up balance to possibly do more interesting mechanics in its place. And making X-ray rare, it makes it a lot more impactful and special and more of an "Oh shit." moment

But for me at least, when we talk about removing X-Ray, I don't necessarily just mean from just genetics.  I feel, as has been said by people before me, X-ray should be reserved for truly powerful entities or antags who can justify those crazy high power levels. Wizard with a scrying orb, I could see having it, a Vamp who got fully powered, maybe. X-ray is as close as you can get in SS13 to "Omnipresence" and that should be reflected in rarity or who attains it, in my opinion.

From my angle in all this, for what it counts, I don't necessarily think we should just make antag lives easier, I mean make EVERYONE'S lives easier an remove X-ray from most entities. Obviously not from the code, cuz there's lots of event style things you could do with it, but as a default, X-ray vision should be quite the rarity and a very potent motivator on both sides of the Antagonist aisle.

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1 hour ago, Dinarzad said:

From my angle in all this, for what it counts, I don't necessarily think we should just make antag lives easier, I mean make EVERYONE'S lives easier an remove X-ray from most entities. Obviously not from the code, cuz there's lots of event style things you could do with it, but as a default, X-ray vision should be quite the rarity and a very potent motivator on both sides of the Antagonist aisle.

Yeah, from my perspective 90% of people who saw this thread thought something was wrong with it.  With almost 60 votes at this point, it still is only a small set of the server population, but that is also how polls work.

First step could be making it more difficult to acquire.  Considering the split, it would probably be in the "Very difficult to acquire" area that would see the most approval.

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I'd prefer something along the lines of giving it a short burst and a cool down, say, 15 seconds/2 minutes, so it's not always on. I'd also be interested that or taking some form of damage when you use it. 

The damage type has to be not ignored by some race or too easily be able to be countered with just filling full of a chem, etc however. I'd also like to see what's possible with alernate sprites for people while they're using it. Limiting information given could be great too...if anyone's willing to code up skeletons for Ian, terror spiders, etc...we could use those sprites for halloween anyway. 

 

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Brain damage huh? Because, our brains are not supposed to "see" electromagnetic waves

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most damages are easy to mitigate, mannitol is easy to get to counter brain damage, as well as mito or occuline for eye damage. Even radiation isn't a fantastic deterrent. Maybe clone damage? How serious should the cost of x-ray be?

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For a visual indicator, we could use the same glowing head stuff that we use for TK, maybe?

As for damage, Radiation would make the most sense imo, with maybe an alternative in clone for Dionas?

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insane to actually implement, but imagine if using x-ray vision meant you were bombarding everyone you looked at with radiation? People would really start to hate anyone who reaches for x-ray.

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