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Community Poll - Medbay Changes

Medbay Changes  

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As many may have already seen, a fairly substantial change was made to Medbay recently.  Details can be found here .

 

With cryotubes no longer healing with no chems, but instead stabilizing critical patients, and sleepers now only stocking ephedrine, saline, salbutamol, and charcoal with upgrades no longer add new chemicals,

 

Do you agree with these changes? Why/why not?

Edited by runefallen

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They sound incredibly annoying. I mean, do I now need to get eye surgery every time I weld without a mask? What are cryotubes good for, exactly? And how does this lead to anything except long lines in front of the cloner and surgery and salty  even saltier ghost chat?

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6 minutes ago, Splgrk said:

They sound incredibly annoying. I mean, do I now need to get eye surgery every time I weld without a mask? What are cryotubes good for, exactly? And how does this lead to anything except long lines in front of the cloner and surgery and salty  even saltier ghost chat?

Cryotubes will still function normally if stocked with Cryoxadone. And yes, you will require eye surgery or chems from a chemist.

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I think that overall, I appreciate these changes. Cryotubes DID feel pretty overpowered. As somebody who has played Medical a fair amount, I've felt for some time that it needs some sort of nerf. My beef has been with the ease of cloning, but nonetheless, I find this change to be positive overall, because it gives Chemists a bit more of a kick in the rear to mix some important chems quickly, so as to make the Cryotubes effective in the same way they were before.

Edited by LuKat

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21 minutes ago, LuKat said:

it gives Chemists a bit more of a kick in the rear to mix some important chems quickly, so as to make the Cryotubes effective in the same way they were before.

1

My concern is that it puts a large reliance on chemistry that is not going to be fulfilled every shift. Perhaps not even most shifts. 

Cryotubes also haven't really changed when working within normal parameters. Cryoxadone in them still heals all wounds as normal and doesn't require addition of more chemicals outside the typical cryomixes.

Edited by runefallen

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Made forum account just to vote.

There are other ways to make death impactful without hamstringing our already always-busy medbay, like increasing cloning timers and minor changes to chemistry, restricting the amount of omni they get at start of shift from the CMO-hypo, etc. I feel that these changes were made through theorycrafting. The reason medbay works (as well as it does, when it does work well) is because people who play it know what they're doing. Not because their tools are too strong.

Now medbay is as annoying to play as it is to be stuck in as a patient. This didn't make death or injury more impactful in a healthy way, it just made the unfun parts of medbay more tedious, and puts unwanted pressure on chemists, a job which has all of its TG-shortcuts gutted from it/never implemented.  Also there's lights above the chem machines that seem specifically designed to splash your chemicals on by accident - that's the PR we actually need. Not something to make playing a non-surgeon medbay staffperson into a dumpster fire the second it gets busy. 

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Revert all the changes and NERF THE DAMM CLONERS PROBER

We wanted THOSE nerfed, not the tools to keep people from dying in the first place!

Yikes!

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Cloning is the only real choke point Medbay has in terms of mass casualty incidents. I'm not sure why everyone keeps screaming to nerf it, pre-scanning is the only real problem with cloning as it stands.

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Played a round last night where the CMO ordered us as doctors to simply clone anyone who was dead regardless of damage/time. People were simply beating themselves to death rather than wait for chems. Again, cloning becomes the only thing anyone who plays this with a strict "gamer" mindset will choose. Also I'm not sure why Fox felt the need to point out that the cryotubes healing with nothing makes no sense, when he believes that auto cloning makes sense because magic exists.

Edited by tiredbum
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All of the changes that have been made seem to push the opposite way of what the community was asking for. I.E; shortening the window of revivability (or removing revivability entirely). If anything, medbay needs small buffs and tweaks to take strain off of cloning and leaving it as a last resort.
I could be reading the community wrong, but I'm pretty sure we voiced that we wanted to lessen the amount of cloning.

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ISN'T THE NEW SYSTEM LOVELY. Someone blows up the bridge, kills half of command and about ten other people. The cloners are booked for the next hour, but no one else in medbay can do anything to help. Several doctors just standing around, since one of them is enough to shove a new corpse into the cloner every few minutes.

Yes, that just happened.

 

How are the other servers looking anyway?

Edited by Splgrk
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Please tone down the hostilities. 

We understand there are frustrations, but starting a flame war won't change anything. 

Keep it civil. 

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2 hours ago, Splgrk said:

Yes, that just happened.

Yep. Also can't remember whether I've seen that long a queue to cloner before (it was neatly set out by the doctors). Just end user remarks, couldn't see any flaming here atleast. That is of course to be reminded when there is a flow of rather negative feedbacks.

Seems like disliking is upon rather single kind of an issue in the system, namely, that only cloners and SR can bring back the dead.

 

Edited by Regular Joe

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6 hours ago, Splgrk said:

ISN'T THE NEW SYSTEM LOVELY. Someone blows up the bridge, kills half of command and about ten other people. The cloners are booked for the next hour, but no one else in medbay can do anything to help. Several doctors just standing around, since one of them is enough to shove a new corpse into the cloner every few minutes.

 Yes, that just happened.

 

If the cloner is overloaded you can always...build more, especially in a mass causality event. And I don't see the issue with a big bomb taking a while to undo.

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Introduction:

Let me tell the story of a round I played earlier today:

The station is full up on jobs, >80 players. Every single Medbay role is filled to capacity...except for Doctors. Previously, there'd be up to five MDs on the manifest, with at least one or two bouncing around the Medbay at any given time. Yet in a round absolutely stuffed with players, with everything from Chemistry to the Coroner all staffed up properly, only two people even bothered to play MD. Needless to say, both of them are nowhere to be found.

Two large bombs go off, in the middle of the station. Casualties are everywhere. Of course, between fastmos and the explosions themselves, it's >2 minutes by the time the bodies are brought to Medbay. None of them are revivable. Previously, MDs would receive them and begin the difficult and dangerous job of trying to SR and revive these players. Instead, they're all dumped at the Cloner like a stack of logs, where a Chemist and the CMO take turns shoving each corpse through like it's a microwave. Cloning was jam-packed, and both surgical theaters were literally spotless. I have a very, very hard time imagining the ORs being clean back when they were still relevant...but when no one's revivable, who needs 'em?

This same pattern has repeated itself almost every single round that I've played during the recent changes, with only slight variations in each one. Reviving and Strange Reagent made for interesting, suspenseful resuscitation efforts, where you had to repeatedly zap someone to keep their heart afloat, do surgery to patch up their many injuries, transfuse to keep them from bleeding out again, clean as much as possible to prevent infection, etc etc etc. The new changes make Medbay - even worse, death itself - downright boring.

The problems:

Speaking as a real-life RN, the old approach of suspenseful, high-acuity action alongside regular, low-acuity fractures or cloning made for surprisingly on-point gameplay. The actual practice involved in treating someone is surprisingly simple most of the time; the issue in RL care is not some Dr. House-esque mystery solving and much more a question of efficiently managing resources. The new medical system, though, is less like working at a trauma center and more like working at a community health clinic (where I've seen nurses downright panic over epistaxis, a.k.a. "a nosebleed"). To try and summarize the basic issues in play:

1. Predictability: Past the two-minute mark, it's over. Boom. Done. Minimize the game and go do your laundry. Needless to say, this does not make for an interesting and engaging experience. There's no question of whether you'll get found in time, because you never get recovered in time for a defib anymore. There's no question of whether or not a competent MD will hit you with SR, because all they can do is to pop you into the cloner like a Hot Pocket and wait for it to finish cooking. Death has become boring; it's now just a question of twiddling your thumbs and watching something on YouTube until the metaphorical microwave has done its work.

2. Lack of human agency: If your corpse gets recovered, you'll likely get cloned eventually. There's nothing anyone can do to speed it up beyond the basic R&D upgrades, which means that there's no point in having anyone competent in Medbay; even the best players can't do anything more than wait for the magic cloning pod to churn through the corpses. Medbay could be crewed by the A-team or a pack of dribbling incompetents, and it has little impact (if any) on patient outcomes.

3. No effect past Medbay itself: Cloning has some new temporary downsides, but those are easily fixed with a trip in the cryopod or a bit of mutadone. It may mean more time spent twiddling your thumbs (yay, such fun, much excite), but once you've done a little more time in the cryopod then you're in the clear. The new death system means more time spent being dead, but it means literally nothing once you're alive again.

4. Lack of alternate playstyles: I've had quite a few games where some whiz-bang MD patched me up in the SS13 equivalent of a back-alley medbay. Rare, to be sure, but being revived even when the original Medbay was a flaming crater made for an interesting round that I can still recall today. The current system prevents all that, because without the cloner or getting really lucky with a defib, you're basically toast. Whoo-wee, such fun, much excite.

Personal aims:

I'm looking to effectively reverse these four factors. To elaborate a little on what I'd like to see:

1. Unpredictability: I don't want death to be the same thing every time. Maybe I'll get found, defibbed, and get back on my feet in no time. Maybe I'll get patched up in a cave by a guy with a box of scraps. Maybe Malpracticebay is in full effect, and the best I can hope for is to get cloned. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

2. Human agency: In keeping with the above, I want a good Medbay to be able to save lives like there's no tomorrow. Sure, make SR expensive and difficult to acquire - that just means it's cooler when the Chemists are on-point and the stuff is available in spades. Make bodies rot sooner, forcing them to be quickly injected with formaldehyde in order to be saved, or put more restrictions on how it can be used...but leave the option open. It makes for much more suspenseful, interesting, and compelling gameplay when things could happen. I don't mind failure, but I want there to be a chance of success in the first place, because having an alternative to failure makes it that much more poignant and interesting.

3. Long-term effects: To put it bluntly, I want the cloning pod to be the failure-state. I want people to hate being cloned, and the easiest way I can see that happening is to put some sort of un-fixable, long-term penalty to being cloned. Having some sort of unsolvable penalty counterbalances the ease of the cloner: it can still be the simple answer, but it's also not the one which people should want to take. The possibility of a full recovery would leave an incentive for good doctors to go through the effort of patching every boo-boo and fixing every wound (and for players to sit around in their broken bodies long enough for docs to fix them), whereas the cloner would still be a potential, if undesirable, option for people to re-enter the round. More on this below.

4. Allowing alternate playstyles: I'd like to give more options for fixing people, rather than a "one-and-done" approach. Maybe Genetics has a a power which prolongs defibrillation time with few downsides; the issue then becomes one of effectively spreading that same power stationwide, or at least to the most at-risk individuals (i.e. resource management). Maybe Medbay is reliant instead on the Coroner or a similar triage person during an MCI (Multiple Casualty Incident), with them running around and moving defib-able people to the cryopod area while injecting the long-term cases with formaldehyde before they start to decompose. Maybe transplantation would remove the cloning penalty, allowing for someone who'd been cloned by MD-McDumbass to get fixed if there were other MDs and Genetics on the ball that round. Overall, though, I'd like to see the game mechanics encouraging more options rather than simply railroading everyone towards the magic cloning microwave.

Suggestions:

A. The defibrillator issue:

-Slightly increase defib times. IIRC the old defib-capable times were up to five minutes, while the current number is two. The current number is far too small, given that defibrillators are rarely ever used in the field; unless you die inside the Medbay itself or near a mediborg, there's no saving you. I'd suggest moving it back to five minutes, to be counterbalanced with a significant penalty (see below). If you're dead-set on reducing defib times, though, then please at least split the difference and make it 3.5 minutes instead of the current "flash in the pan."

-Increased defibrillator times could be counterbalanced by having defibrillation inflict severe damage on the heart like it does IRL. This would require doctors to be careful and sparing about their defib use, and make it a gamble every time you place the paddles. Inflicting variable 10-35 heart damage per shock would allow someone to survive a single defib at a bare minimum, but would make multiple uses of the defibrillator a very dangerous game (i.e. suspenseful). Heart damage requires either chest surgery or mitocholide to fix, so either Chemistry or an MD being on the ball would be able to fix the damage. This'd add additional uncertainty due to the ever-present question of player competence, and would allow for meaningful success-stories to happen, such as "a competent Chemist saves patients from a defib-happy MD's mistakes" or vice versa.

B. Strange Reagent:

I'd suggest limiting SR through:

-Requiring a higher dose and/or more exotic materials. Space fungus might be a good 'un, or diamond, or some similarly hard-to-acquire substance. The goal here should be to make SR achieveable to make, but only by someone who knows what the hell they're doing. Alternatively, it could require help from another department, such as needing a high power draw from Engineering, ambrosia gaia or a similar higher-level plant from Botany, or upgraded parts from Science.

-Shortening the time available before a body begins decaying. I'm not sure how long the current time is until bodies start decaying, but the first stage (i.e. "They are beginning to smell") is the cutoff point for SR. If you shorten that time down, then formaldehyde and good corpse-triage becomes vital to saving them. In other words, something like this.

-I think the current system of "SR revives with brain/genetics" damage is good enough as-is. It allows for revives in the field, but inflicts a serious penalty if you lack access to a cryotube, and also requires that the field medic have remembered to pack along some mannitol as well.

C. Cloning:

As mentioned, I'd like cloning to be the "failure-state" of Medbay. People should have a real, lasting reason to not want to be cloned, and I'd suggest the following mechanisms for doing so:

-Implementing Clone Memory Disorder (CMD) for an in-character penalty. A rule like "you aren't able to remember anything that happened for the past thirty minutes" would allow for some interesting RP opportunities for anyone who's so inclined, and also keep people from being able to easily nail their killers. After all, if someone starts yelling "JOE IS A 'CLING!" the moment they pop out of the cloner, that's fairly bwoinkable. There won't be 100% compliance, and the initial implementation will be patchy as usual, but having some IC penalty for getting cloned should make RP-heavy, powergamey-light players want to avoid it. If possible, I'd like to also include some mention of "You will only be able to retrieve these memories with heavy counseling" or the like, to provide people with an IC reward for visiting the Psychiatrist. Basically, if you sit down and RP out talking through "shit I'm a clone, what happened back there," you can circumvent the penalty (and ID your killer). This should hopefully make the Psychiatrist a little more relevant, while also allowing for a method of dealing with the penalty providing the player is willing to put in enough effort.

-Implement some sort of [was cloned] penalty tag for anyone whose body was cloned. This would have a significant mechanical drawback which cannot be easily removed (that part is key). Options here include a brute/burn damage multiplier like IPCs, decreased maximum health, or a similar significant mechanical disadvantage. The goal here is to provide a penalty which even the powergamey-est of players would have to sit up and pay attention to; even if you don't give a shit about CMD, the mechanical cloning penalty would still make you sit up and pay attention. This could then be circumvented by brain transplantation into a humanized monkey (which would require both Genetics and an MD to be on the ball), or a similarly-circuitous method for anyone who really wants to get around it.

-I don't mind autoprocessing and autocloning, and I'd suggest keeping it in light of the above penalties. This would make prescanning a gamble: do you hope that your body gets found, or do you just say "screw it" and hop into the cloner, hoping that you can find a competent Geneticist and MD to help you out on the other side? (or will you be too busy once cloned, and have to just deal with the penalty anyway?)

Conclusion:

Thank you to whoever took the time to read all this, and I hope this provides some decent food for thought. I agree that the previous Medbay system was definitely flawed in some respects, but I don't this approach is a positive one to fixing it. In lieu of the current changes, I'd like to provide labor-intensive methods to circumvent death, and to make cloning a last-resort option which no one wants to have happen. If you have any questions or comments about my proposal, feel free to make 'em.

Edited by Norwest
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I agree with basically everything Norwest said entirely, once again someones' said what I've tried to say better than me ?, aside from the changes to SR being something like fungus or diamonds. Rezadone, Carpotoxin, or Earthsblood would be just fine. Even, perhaps, a minorly higher dose of 5u. Limiting it severely? Absolutely not, considering two races need it to be revived outside of a brain transplant. Also kinda don't agree on making skeletonization take shorter unless genetics can aid to fix it. It'd be fun to go around as a skeleton some rounds but, it'd get old eventually.

Oh, and, defibs do already have downsides. They cause brain damage scaling depending on how long a person has been dead. On top of having to heal whatever damage the person has. So, I'm not too sure why they were nerfed so severely in the first place.

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15 minutes ago, Mitchs98 said:

I agree with basically everything Norwest said entirely, once again someones' said what I've tried to say better than me ?, aside from the changes to SR being something like fungus or diamonds. Rezadone, Carpotoxin, or Earthsblood would be just fine. Even, perhaps, a minorly higher dose of 5u. Limiting it severely? Absolutely not, considering two races need it to be revived outside of a brain transplant. Also kinda don't agree on making skeletonization take shorter unless genetics can aid to fix it. It'd be fun to go around as a skeleton some rounds but, it'd get old eventually.

Thanks! I'll admit, I know very little about Botany, but making SR dependent on their help seems like a decent compromise. That way, even if all the Botanists are traitors/incompetent/dead, the Garden, Permabrig, and R&D all provide backup options for growing plants in a pinch.

My reasoning with regards to increasing decay speed is because it can be halted completely with formaldehyde. That would provide a sense of urgency, since there's a looming penalty for not getting SR'd or hit with formaldehyde, and would require Medbay to practice triage. MCI (Multiple-Casualty Incident) triage, a.k.a. "walk through the car wreck and pick out the survivors," is pretty fulfilling work in my opinion, so I think it's something I'd like to see implemented in some manner. Defibs provide that to some degree, but with a greater reliance on SR over the cloner, I'd like to see SR have some form of "temporal urgency" (a time limit) which forces the triaging MD to be on the ball. And of course, if all else fails, there's still the microwave cloner to let dead people get back into the round eventually.

While defibs already have downsides, I'm sure you'd agree that brain damage is extremely easy to fix. I'd like to add an element of suspense and danger to the defibrillator, so that the success stories are that much more meaningful - there should be a reasonable chance of failure, even if it's something that a competent player can manage without too much difficulty under normal circumstances. Defibs inflicting a harmful-but-manageable amount of cardiac damage would ideally provide some risk without keeping people from using them. After all, a 10u mitocholide pill can patch up cardiac damage, as can efficient task-prioritization like "patching up the heart along with the patient's fractured chest" that experienced MDs already do. I'm open to discussion here, of course, but I do think there should be some form of failure-state in order to heighten the successes.

Edited by Norwest
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A casual reminder to people that want to obliterate cloning:

You are not the only one who plays the game and the medical department.
Not everyone is a 7 year veteran of Space 'Nam where you did 32 consecutive duties in a medical tent patching people back together with staples and tomato juice as a blood substitute.
New people play the game.
People new to the medical department play the game.
Screwing new people over side ways is not fun, ensures nobody ever wants to learn/play the department, and helps ensure low-pop rounds are a god awful misery festival. An example of this is Atmospherics. Barely anyone knows how that system works beyond a very very basic level of understanding, and so you barely see anyone play it. They take the job slot to be a psuedo-engineer, but do nothing it Atmos itself. Because learning that system is painful and the consequences can be terrifying. (Leaking toxic gases, etc.)

I get why you guys want to destroy Cloning forever and make it atrocious. But you are looking at it from the eyes and perspectives of a long term veteran player who already knows all the mechanics and gets bored when not challenged or given a meatier task to handle, has memorized the procedures, knows what chems do what, what is the more efficient way to make those chems/surgery order and what makes species different from each other, like why Diona all have different names for their organs (Even though they are functionally identical to human organs) or that Vox/Slimes need special kinds of treatment.

You are not accounting for the new doctor who has no idea what in the ever loving fuck is going on around him, why the things he is doing doesn't work and what to do if the zappy paddles don't work.  Every department has simple tasks that even new players can do.  Engineers can wire up solars, etc.

And as a reminder: You can get yelled out of the Science department just for not being hyper efficient on doing RnD. I have seen people fired for not having it done fast enough by particularly grouchy RDs, something very easily and quickly fixed with no long term damaging effects (No damage effects at all really, just a lack of very desirable buffs.)  And now you're suggesting that cloning, the go to option for new doctors, leave permanent round-lasting effects of debuffs on people.  you can and will see doctors screamed at for cloning people and depending on the CMO fired outright for daring to not know things.

You must account for the fact that players that are not as skilled and well-versed as you can play the exact same jobs, an account for how badly these systems WILL fuck them up.  SS13 is not new player friendly, there's always going to be some rough learning processes to every system, but stacking the deck against them isn't cool either.

Edited by Dinarzad
Formatting an Elaboration.
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20 hours ago, runefallen said:

With cryotubes no longer healing with no chems, but instead stabilizing critical patients, and sleepers now only stocking ephedrine, saline, salbutamol, and charcoal with upgrades no longer add new chemicals,

 

Do you agree with these changes? Why/why not?

Please keep things on topic to the OP.

This is not a thread about reviving or cloning. This was about the PR which changed cryotubes and sleepers.

 

And if you are going to give feedback on those (or other) issues, then look at @Norwest 's post for a good example of how to give us really useful feedback (even if it's in the wrong thread).

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16 minutes ago, Dinarzad said:

A casual reminder to people that want to obliterate cloning:

You are not the only one who plays the game and the medical department.
Not everyone is a 7 year veteran of Space 'Nam where you did 32 consecutive duties in a medical tent patching people back together with staples and tomato juice as a blood substitute.
New people play the game.
People new to the medical department play the game.
Screwing new people over side ways is not fun, ensures nobody ever wants to learn/play the department, and helps ensure low-pop rounds are a god awful misery festival. An example of this is Atmospherics. Barely anyone knows how that system works beyond a very very basic level of understanding, and so you barely see anyone play it. They take the job slot to be a psuedo-engineer, but do nothing it Atmos itself. Because learning that system is painful and the consequences can be terrifying. (Leaking toxic gases, etc.)

I get WHY you guys want to destroy Cloning forever and make it atrocious. But you are looking at it from the eyes and perspectives of a long term veteran player who already knows all the mechanics and gets bored when not challenged or given a meatier task to handle, has memorized the procedures, knows what chems do what, what is the more efficient way to make those chems/surgery order and what makes species different from each other, like why Diona all have different names for their organs (Even though they are functionally identical to human organs) or that Vox/Slimes need special kinds of treatment.

You are NOT accounting for the new doctor who has no idea what in the ever loving fuck is going on around him, why the things he is doing doesn't work and what to do if the zappy paddles don't work.  Every department has simple tasks that even new players can do.  Engineers can wire up solars, etc.

You must account for the fact that players that are not as skilled and well-versed as you can play the exact same jobs, an account for how badly these systems WILL fuck them up.  SS13 is not new player friendly, there's always going to be some rough learning processes to every system, but stacking the deck against them isn't cool either.

 

That's certainly a good point, but to be frank, I don't recall cloning being much fun for a newbie either. Surgery was the interesting and engaging thing for me when I was starting out in Medbay, because a) it required a significant number of actions, while b) the Operating Computer meant that I had a pretty good idea of what to do, and c) the patient was unconscious and therefore wasn't in a position to complain. Cloning has the issue of being pretty boring even for someone starting out ("put mans in cloner, press button, wait"), and I see the recent changes as being unhelpful in that regard, because they push attention away from the ORs.

The key changes between a newbie and a veteran MD, in my opinion, is less about knowing esoteric knowledge and more about rapidly applying it. A newbie doc would be absolutely overwhelmed if left alone to handle an MCI, but frankly, they'd be overwhelmed with an MCI under any circumstances. Under more-routine circumstances, the older system of "defib, then clone" for newbies worked fine, and my proposed system would still allow for that to happen. There'd be more of a penalty to cloning, yes, but it'd still function as before.

I envision cloning as the backup option, and I agree that we shouldn't remove it entirely. I like the idea of it serving as the last resort, and I believe that Clone Memory Disorder + a mechanical penalty wouldn't make it completely useless. IPCs can still function with 1.5x brute/burn damage, albeit with lots of salt about their EMP vulnerability in dchat, and my proposed changes would still allow for the cloner to function like it currently does otherwise. Newbie MDs would still be able to toss a dead character inside if defibrillation fails, and players would still be able to re-enter the round using it; the idea is to allow for a newbie to start there and to graduate up to knowing the different drugs, knowing how2SR, and so on.

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17 minutes ago, Norwest said:

Newbie MDs would still be able to toss a dead character inside if defibrillation fails, and players would still be able to re-enter the round using it; the idea is to allow for a newbie to start there and to graduate up to knowing the different drugs, knowing how2SR, and so on.

Here is my problem with the suggestion of a permanent debuff or detriment to people who are cloned though.
The newbie doctor who does that?
Fired. Immediately.

Now, naturally, you're thinking "But they did nothing against any law, they'd never get fired for that."  And IDEALLY that would hold very true, but as Science department has taught me, people can frequently be horrendous to new players or people new to Science, because they're new and don't know things like how to be extremely efficient.  I have seen and experienced being thrown off the RnD console for not having it done by 30 minutes into a round. I was actively working on it, I was just bad. I spent the rest of the round without a job, cuz nobody else wanted me after that.
I have seen particularly rude RD's fire scientists outright for "Slacking off.  And this is just RnD, this is something that has no permanent detriment to the server if it isn't done at the 15 minute mark, it can very easily be rectified. And yet, the moment you choose an inefficient option, you are are absolutely dead to some people.

To suggest cloning give people permanent downsides, I can promise you with utter certainty, you will see CMO's scream and fire new doctors who don't know any better, or the cloned person themselves will scream at them and potentially get security to try and arrest them for permanently injuring them (And depending on if that sec team is competent or not, they may actually do it.)
We wanna nerf cloning, fine. I disagree with it, but I am open to the notion.
But permanent debuffs and long term affects will only serve as a newbie trap, they'll do it not really knowing better and get royally reamed for it, if not outright fired or brigged and it will skew their perception of the department from then on. It would effectively be punishing OTHER players, for someone being new and that's a recipe to set someone up to be a scapegoat/lynch target for the greytide.

I just REALLY want to address that point, and since @necaladun wants this to remain on topic, A new poll/thread should be opened to continue the conversation further or we'll just have to stop here.

Edited by Dinarzad

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I like the sleeper changes.
-It solves the issue of medbay scrambling to empty all the nanomeds of charcoal just because science decided not to do their job, or because the bar threw a party at round start.
-Saline Glucose is more useful than Sypt/Silv thanks to it also restoring blood, even if it's much slower.
-Having no more Mannitol or Oculine in sleepers is a minor inconvenience, but it just means going to the chemist instead; Mitocholide pills also work as alternatives.
-Ephedrine is a weird replacement for Epinephrine, but you OD at 35+ and it metabolises fast enough that 30 units only lasts maybe 2 minutes; it's not as abusable as it seemed originally.

The cryotube change has almost no affect gameplay wise since cryotubes almost always have a beaker of some sort in them. It would've been faster to heal in a sleeper than an beakerless cryotube anyways.

Edited by Pckables
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