Kryson

Antagonist duty to retreat?

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In light of a recent ruling. How many witnesses are you allowed to eliminate before you are duty bound to retreat?

Isn't it both unrealistic and against the games sprit or paranoia for players to know they are largely antag proof by virtue of the rules as long as a few other players are in sight?

With how overcrowded box is you can expect there is going to be witnesses, and with it being a MRP server you can also expect witnesses to try to hinder you in some way such as alerting security.

Eliminating those witnesses is distinctly different from murderboning and even if both type of scenarios result in multiple death the vast differences should be recognised.

I look forward to your thoughts on this topic.

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Use common sense, it is quiet easy to determine what is best for everybody 

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Whenever i antag as a normal tator (im piss poor at anything else) i just do my kills as neccesary. 

 

One time i killed my target and stuck around even as sec came rushing, why? 

Because it made sense that i would be one of the first to arrive (Target was an Atmos Tech, me an Engineer) 

I even tried putting them back together (it was an IPC) and i was ESCORTED to robotics with the body and allowed to fix it. 

Safe to say, i took its Posi and put a dead Posi in. 

 

So many witnesses, but play it cool, act as normal and noone but powergamers can stop you, and in that case you have the admemes to assist. 

 

I never get why some tators murderbone for "no witnesses", its a stupid excuse. 

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If you're completely forced to kill someone in a public place, then you do the sensible thing and try to drag them away from the public place, dead or alive. Anyone that follows you into maintenance is free game, but you don't hang around and start massacring everyone for existing in your general area.

You could also RP to get your target to move.

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12 minutes ago, Pckables said:

If you're completely forced to kill someone in a public place, then you do the sensible thing and try to drag them away from the public place, dead or alive. Anyone that follows you into maintenance is free game, but you don't hang around and start massacring everyone for existing in your general area.

You could also RP to get your target to move.

I fondly remember a round i spent teaching a newbie surgery, naturally that meant i never left the confines of medbay.

The tator with a prize on my head knew it was well populated and that she had to kill me "in broad daylight".

Donning a fox mask (or kitsune, i dunno), emag and E-sword, she swept in, warded off would-be-heroes that tried validing her with the sword, but otherwise left the doctors alone, busted the door to the OR open and carved me open in front of my apprentice, then legged it out off there.

She still got killed, but it was in an attempt to flee through the horde of Valid Inc. Not because she tried killing everyone.

 

She got my karma that round.

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That's why you never flee back the way you came. Maint or disposals, always. 

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I had a round once as Changeling Mime.
My objectives included killing the Psych and escaping on the shuttle with his identity.

The Psych office is pretty secluded on Cyberiad, and as luck would have it my target asked if I wanted the shutters closed for privacy. (Yes please...)

Mute sting and an armblade later, the Psych was dead on the floor.
Suddenly a nosy Paramedic who had heard the scuffle came in to investigate the noise.
He began to drag away the body of the Psych.

I saw that as interference with my objective (I needed that ID card!), so I chased and armbladed the paramedic all the way back to his office.
Now both the Psych and the Paramedic were dead just outside the Paramedic's office.
I grabbed the ID off the body just as a Sec Cyborg was entering Med Bay...
...Sec Cyborg does absolutely nothing and just keeps walking past(!!)

I am dumb-founded for a moment, as I thought that I was done when that Sec Cyborg showed up.
I slide out into the hallway, transform into the Psych in full view of the middle of the hallway, wear bloody mime clothes all the way back to the dressing room, nobody looks twice.

Psych player, being a really cool person, plays up the Clone Memory Disorder with vague recollections of the attack.
They could have immediately outed me to security, but decided to give me a shot at winning the round.

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On 3/12/2019 at 3:31 AM, Kryson said:

In light of a recent ruling. How many witnesses are you allowed to eliminate before you are duty bound to retreat?

Isn't it both unrealistic and against the games sprit or paranoia for players to know they are largely antag proof by virtue of the rules as long as a few other players are in sight?

With how overcrowded box is you can expect there is going to be witnesses, and with it being a MRP server you can also expect witnesses to try to hinder you in some way such as alerting security.

Eliminating those witnesses is distinctly different from murderboning and even if both type of scenarios result in multiple death the vast differences should be recognised.

I look forward to your thoughts on this topic.

Its a sprite of the rules thing.

As an admin, what I am looking for, is two things.

1) Is this clearly a case where the antag found a way to contrive a situation so they could murderbone. 

A classic example of this, is committing your crime in the hallway outside the bridge, so you can murder half the crew and security for being witnesses.

2) Was this a case where the Antag tried to be stealthy, had a plan, and it just went wrong?

Things go wrong, sometimes you have to clean up.  If thats OK or not, I primarily base on if the Antag planned to do so in a stealthy manner, or just had a total disregard for how it went down.  An antag plays responsibly, and is known to play responsively is going to get away with a lot more witness murdering.  Since its not just part of being an antag to them.

If its just part of the experience of being an antag, killing people who are not, and have nothing to do with your objectives.  Then yeah, not OK.

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A long while ago during one of my cling rounds, we were a group that were clearly intent on helping each other out. Suddenly one of the changelings shouts over hivemind that they're about to get cremated, so 3 of us run into the cremation room and rescue him, killing the security/chaplain in the room in the process. 
Generally it was okay at that point, because everyone killed was an immediate threat to the changeling we were saving.

Then while im trying to hack open the maint door to escape, the other changelings decide "no witnesses" and start murderboning several civilians in the chapel.
Definitely a bad thing.

We escaped into maintenance to recouperate and absorb some of the corpses. Killed a valid hunter abusing TK to push us back into the cremation room, which was an okay kill.
Killing a random civvie that walked into maint or a paramedic before they can get a word out was over the line, to which an admin gave a message to everyone to tone down the murder.

In general, chasing down someone who walked in isn't a great move. You'll just end up murdering in a public hallway. Witnesses that need to be killed are those already there before you start your plan of action, anyone who walks in later should be ignored if they keep their distance or dealt with if they interfere.

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Alffd's bang on the money there. The only thing i have to add is:

People are very rarely banned outright for such things. Admins pm people first, and look at their past history. Most of the time someone is told to tone things down and told why what they did is against the rules.

 

Bans result when the person refuses to follow the admin instructions, or has a history of such actions. 

Admins are players too. Generally with a lot more playtime than the people they're messaging. Context and spirit are key. The biggest factor though is generally the response to pms. If an admin tells someone they were excessive in eliminating potential threats, accusing them of just being salty because they were one of the people killed (just an example, but a very common one), results in a ban. Apoligizing and discussing the situation with the admin as to how you could act better in the future rarely does. It might even result in a positive note. 

 

Tldr: bans are rarely as simple as people make them out to be.

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1 hour ago, necaladun said:

 

I do think Alffd and Necaladun's explanation of the policy make sense. As long as the admin online does

I do this agree with this type on sentiment though

Quote

Killing a random civvie that walked into maint or a paramedic before they can get a word out was over the line

If a lone person catches me in maint murdering, as a traitor or changeling, i am going to try to kill them, there are both good roleplay and game reasons why. A wizard, vampire or mindslave might have more RP justifications for letting them go. Walking in on a murder should be a scary thing, and there is little reason a professional syndicate assassin would let the only witness live.

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I would like to add in terms of an antagonists "duty," if you will, you should always take into account how the round is going. If there is a lot of chaos and a lot of antags doing things, then perhaps tone it down and don't kill the paramedic that just rushed you into maint to steal your targets corpse. Or perhaps if you don't have non lethal options, just drag your witnesses and people you have killed back to medbay and so on.

On the flip side of the coin, if the round is quiet and slow I'll make an attempt to be less stealthy and more 'loud' towards my objective to give security something to chase and to try and keep things from becoming dull, even if I'm not going to initiate a shootout with them. 

Thats just side stuff though, I feel one of the bigger things to mention is don't permakill people who aren't your target or another agents target without a very good reason. If they were chasing you in maint, or an unlucky officer that you had to lethal, I get it, but there's no need to take them out of the entire round. Sort of a dick move in my opinion.

But hey, that's just how I view it. 

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48 minutes ago, Rurik said:

I would like to add in terms of an antagonists "duty," if you will, you should always take into account how the round is going. If there is a lot of chaos and a lot of antags doing things, then perhaps tone it down and don't kill the paramedic that just rushed you into maint to steal your targets corpse. Or perhaps if you don't have non lethal options, just drag your witnesses and people you have killed back to medbay and so on.

If more security players and antags played this way it would lead to rounds being so much more fun and interesting for all. I know I've beat my chest about this endlessly on the forums but, I'll continue to say the best security players know when to turn it up and when to lay off the gas. Stomping the antags into the ground constantly doesn't make someone a good sec player.

I think if we got to the point this behavior was commonplace on both sides it could even lead to victims being more respectful of antags...then we could see some really interesting stuff happen.

Imagine antags and victims "working together" to make things more interesting. And security playing along with that. We would be in a place where being a target of an antag could be as interesting as being an antag.

In a perfect world right?

Edited by ZN23X
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1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

If more security players and antags played this way it would lead to rounds being so much more fun and interesting for all. I know I've beat my chest about this endlessly on the forums but, I'll continue to say the best security players know when to turn it up and when to lay off the gas. Stomping the antags into the ground constantly doesn't make someone a good sec player.

That is the spirit. Sec side, space law and SoP are constructed quite well to guide to the direction of not stomping. Applying the ideal of "innocent until proven guilty" , instead of "guilty until proven innocent" while considering sec moves will do it. Though yelling might happen, when that antag you dealt, in doubt, with the lighter way, becomes a threat that needs the harsh actions, but yelling to sec happen usually so better let it be. That's better for the round and also better than having then an innocent held up or even killed, which will inevitably happen from time to time, if sec is played without being able to justify their actions with proofs. As the "proof" I've been applying, considering processing, direct evidence, like possessed S-class stuff, enough witness on crimes or alien powers of the suspect, and forensic evidence. If any of these are lacking anyhow, that is - this about processing - we know don't know whether the evidence is linked only to the the suspect, then the actions should be accordant, that is lighter, or even releasing. In short we say: consider context and evidence with common sense. Common sense as both in-game situation and otherwise minding that both side are players and we want to both accomplish IC missions and have a round with fair play.

Talking of which, there could still be some more interpretation guidelines in the space law, even if sense is the thing and you'll get the guidelines by experience. Namely the interpretation while sentencing the suspects we possess, since the basis for usage of force is very well explained both in SoP and spacelaw. So I say "I've been using as the proof...", I've had to learn that mostly by making questionable decisions to the both directions, being too lenient or too harsh. Even if that will happen anyway as there is the certain fog of war, in which you have to make your calls (that's something I love in the game anyway), some explicated guiding would do. On antag actions I'll echo the above said. I feel like this being a question to consider here too, as sec actions affect their actions, as above. I'm not after to tie security in favor of giving antags more space, but actually having some black and white behind the in-doubt decisions could easen some pressure they experience to act rash, while acting rough is sure all permitted when situation and/or the law demands it. Yet this is bit far away from the topic of antag duty to retreat as a rules matter, that's all answered.

Hadn't somebody suggested not too long ago that magistrates could do IC paperwork on their decisions, that would be then readable later as IC books, like the library system? For spacelaw interpretation a public library of a number of sentences would be fun. Though it is a question whether there are any time for magistrates to actually file that kind of stuff, or more, a warden or HoS to read and employ that knowledge.

Edited by Regular Joe

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