Medi

A very unpopular suggestion (But needed)

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5 hours ago, Medi said:

I like this, it does make sense but my only concern is antag balance given that officers can be hired during shift or made priority. Thus, players hanging back and not queuing up as sec and joining late would be a meta to break antags and prevent them from being too numerous.

Example: 3 randos queue at round start for sec during high pop. 1 - 2 antags made as a result. Then comes HOS, Warden, Pod pilot, 3 more officers who join late.

  

Potential fixes: either lower the number of available sec slots at round start, based on antag have a minimum of potentially 3-4 antags at round start, or create rules against this which would realistically be hard to enforce.  

 

I don't see this as a problem.  We actively monitor the rounds and add more antags, or alter the midround antag type or adjust when it occurs.

What we don't have is a good way of doing is removing antags, other then disabling the mid-round event.  Its easier for us to add antags, then it is to remove them or add security.

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In general:

  1. I think we should look to code-based solutions, not simply admin-policy solutions. Admin-policy solutions exist to do things we cannot do with code, NOT to do things we could instead do with code.
  2. I think that any solutions we do implement should be carefully thought out and aimed at (A) making security more fun, so more people want to play it (B) making security more competent, so it has a better reputation, and (C) making the crew treat security better.

Some specific ideas:

  1. I still think we should have a device in processing that automatically times how long suspects/prisoners are in there, and generates an alert on security radio when someone has been in there over 10 minutes. This would help cut down on people being left in processing far too long, which always results in a worse relationship between security and crew.
  2. I also think that batons should have an inbuilt sec radio, which generates a one-time message on sec comms the first time each baton is used on harm intent. This would help magistrate/HoS/Captain notice and stop shitty officers.
  3. I'm also inclined to believe that security should get automatic basic department access on red. This means security officers should be able to simply walk into medical, eng, science, etc on red. The airlocks should open for them. It doesn't make sense to me that security are supposed to have access to these areas... yet they usually don't.
  4. I believe that yelling 'shitcurity' over radio for no good reason, or otherwise needlessly antagonizing security, needs to be a crime under space law or a SOP violation. Security should feel like the crew will treat them with respect, and we should make whatever changes are needed to ensure that happens.
  5. I'm still keen on my idea of 'give the head of every department a medal in their locker that they can award to excellent crew from their department'. Something to reward players for being great at their jobs. In fact in this case I'd go further and I'd deem the magistrate a head for these purposes, allowing them to give out a 'Legal Excellence' medal to whoever they feel is the best at upholding space law each shift, including say IAAs who challenge unjust sentences.
  6. I am skeptical that security cadets would be a good idea, as I think they'd just end up as loot pinatas. Even with lesser gear, merely being able to get a stunprod, sec ID and sec comms from them is already reason enough for antags to kill them for their gear. However, I am willing to let the idea be testmerged and trialed, and willing to admit if the results of such a test prove me wrong.
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Woah, those are some really good suggestions, especially the first two.

This would really help raising the competence of security in general

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I still say give cases of "shitcurity" calling and unwarranted abuse and toxicity towards Security treated as "Harassment" under SOP. IAA / NT Rep / Magistrate can easily sit there and help moderate that portion and make the recommendation for demotion / levy a punishment against them. It can be something as simple as freezing their financial account so that they are reliant on the chef to cook food rather then being able to use vending machines.

Additionally, Security Cadets would have merit on a system what was more prolonged then ours. As Kyet said, they're just loot pinatas. You are either security or you aren't on this kind of fast paced server and the cadets would get lost in the mix quickly.

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My concern is that none of the suggestions make security more fun.

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On 7/9/2019 at 12:32 AM, Kyet said:
  • I believe that yelling 'shitcurity' over radio for no good reason, or otherwise needlessly antagonizing security, needs to be a crime under space law or a SOP violation. Security should feel like the crew will treat them with respect, and we should make whatever changes are needed to ensure that happens.

This is a bad idea. The biggest complaint against security is they use their power to abuse people they don't like or find annoying. Making it a crime to criticize them only legitimizes that behavior, especially when no other part of your post implies any enforcement of security being professional themselves. This is literally going to lead to security players baiting people they don't like into vocalizing their distaste and critisms so they can arrest the person. 

If security mains think security should get more respect, they need to actually play the role in a manner where they are respectful to the crew and not needlessly making the round worse for non-security players for their own benefit.

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4 minutes ago, davidchan said:

This is a bad idea. The biggest complaint against security is they use their power to abuse people they don't like or find annoying. Making it a crime to criticize them only legitimizes that behavior, especially when no other part of your post implies any enforcement of security being professional themselves. This is literally going to lead to security players baiting people they don't like into vocalizing their distaste and critisms so they can arrest the person. 

If security mains think security should get more respect, they need to actually play the role in a manner where they are respectful to the crew and not needlessly making the round worse for non-security players for their own benefit.

As one of these "security mains" i find that statement somewhat offensive, you make it seem as if security mains DON'T act in a manner where they are respectful, this is aimed, primarily, at new players who don't ask for assistance, and use the role as a power move to be an asshole and unstoppable, when in retrospect, most of us "security mains" have and continue to arrest and demote these sorts of players to remove them from play

 

What kyet is referencing is when a person is legitimately arrested for legit reasons and yelling shitcurity and the whole crew jumps on the bandwaggon, i cant count how many times i have had a random greytide triggered by someone shouting shitcurity and me getting jumped by the greytide to free them

Edited by IntentEldiablo

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1 hour ago, davidchan said:

The biggest complaint against security is they use their power to abuse people they don't like or find annoying.

This mainly comes from people who skirt around space law and are a general nuisance towards security, so if they don't want security being a nuisance back then don't dish what you can't take.

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3 hours ago, davidchan said:

This is a bad idea. The biggest complaint against security is they use their power to abuse people they don't like or find annoying. Making it a crime to criticize them only legitimizes that behavior, especially when no other part of your post implies any enforcement of security being professional themselves. This is literally going to lead to security players baiting people they don't like into vocalizing their distaste and critisms so they can arrest the person. 

If security mains think security should get more respect, they need to actually play the role in a manner where they are respectful to the crew and not needlessly making the round worse for non-security players for their own benefit.

I'm against making it a crime to merely criticize security.

I'm for making it a crime or SOP violation to needlessly antagonize security.

There is a difference.

"Security confiscated my stuff when they shouldn't have" is a criticism, and fine.

"SHITCURITY ABUSING ME IN PROCESSING HELP!" (when security are simply processing you without actually doing anything abusive) is needlessly antagonizing security.

Basically, if your complaint is reasonable, and/or expressed in a constructive way, its fine.

On the other hand, if you're going out of your way to make life as difficult as possible for security, and you are not an antag, you shouldn't be doing that. Nobody should.

Even if security is bad at their job, making life extra difficult for them WON'T improve matters.

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9 hours ago, Allfd said:

My concern is that none of the suggestions make security more fun.

Though I like Kyet’s referation of ideas to be worked with - especially the processing timer and the harmbaton-alert sound like neat little tools making it more easy to spot and correct the bad stuff - I affirm with this here. While it’s hard to say any reasonable suggestion that would improve this, or, that we knew it would improve this.

Making needless antagonizing of security a  SoP/law violation - maybe, as of that could scratch some useless negative shit off the seccies.

Yet, personally I’m not very concerned of the tideys, but of the flow of events, rather, as discussed earlier. Sec gets too overwhelmed, too often to do it fair, especially so with the HoS and warden, if they do their jobs at all. So I would see tackling this issue a buff to the effectiveness of sec and taking some stress away of it, thus making it bit more fun.

(Edit: reading what Allfd says below, tideys are indeed a concern for the more new officers as of surviving as fine-doing sec, not against antags but tideys is a problem indeed, one root of the tase-cuff stuff. This mine from a sec regular viewpoint.)

Say, I enjoy HoS a lot, still I seldomly take it, as of playing that role properly will by 60/50 chance be extremely demanding. It should be rough, yes, but then there are the useless bad things which you can’t handle, but exactly you should be the one to take action against those, and you cannot, because of you got too much on your plate. By these I mean by foremost abusive seccies, which the HoS should deal with. They’re hard to spot outside the brig, and if deep shit has hitted the fan (per usual), they are also hard to deal with just by the lack of time, if spotted. Let alone to prevent them. During highpop, you’ll often be too busy with co-ordinaring, sharing information and making decisions that officers expect from you, to do that efficiently. I try to watch over processing usually, can’t do much else of quality control. IAA’s, yes, but they usually need the HoS to perform the sanction they suggest. So I’m advocating some change to sec organization: try to think a new role there, to take something off HoS or Warden in order to make it bit less demanding to them to do it good.

I don’t say that the situation is deeply bad in this. It just feels to happen quite often and is so the main concern I could think about.

In the other hand, what I described is a part of the game, sec shouln’t be perfect either and the roles mentioned should give the challenge. This is a difficult topic. Agreeing and liking most suggestions hereby, though. Reasonable, less grave things in comparison to any organization tweak.

Edited by Regular Joe

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4 hours ago, Ty Omaha said:

This mainly comes from people who skirt around space law and are a general nuisance towards security, so if they don't want security being a nuisance back then don't dish what you can't take.

This.

I have begun observing security regularly to try and get a understanding of the situation.  A little more then half the people getting pulled in are greytide.  Of the problem security officers we have, almost none of them are regulars or high time security/command. 

 

6 hours ago, davidchan said:

If security mains think security should get more respect, they need to actually play the role in a manner where they are respectful to the crew and not needlessly making the round worse for non-security players for their own benefit.


They do.  The crew does not do that in return.  Security players tend not to be mains, and tend to be less experienced then the tide they confront.  If they don't insta taze and cuff, they are going to get disarmed spammed, robusted for all their things and flushed down disposals.  Its too easy for your average tider to overwhelm a new officers, it happens once and they are never off their guard.  This is just one of many examples.  It sucks, but this is not an easy fix, the mechanics of our server encourage this behaviour.

I unlocked Vox, IPC, NTRep, and Pod Pilot, all through security karma back in the day.  As things changed I started playing blueshield, as I still saw a fair amount of action, did not have to deal with rando tide, and got to feel like a real bodyguard with a baton and laser pistol.  (At the time it was a massive revolver, I miss that).

I can't speak for other former mains, but I remember when security was more often armed, had webbing, and could switch out the power cells in their weapons.   As things got more and more mall cop, I just stopped playing security.  When that was the norm, we would not wear armour or helmets until at least blue.

I don't bring this up to sound "Back in my day."  but I do believe that if we are looking for why attitudes may have changed, we should look for causes.

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I'm still advocating that we use the assets we have on hand to deal with the problem on the short hand while we wait for more code based solutions, as Kyet suggested, to become an actual thing.

 

1. Allow IAA / NT Rep (in cases of Command) / and the Magistrate to investigate and recommend action against Harassment of Security as a SOP violation with the possible penalties of: Increased time on a separate sentence, garnished wages, demotion, etc. These are to be treated on a case by case basis and supported with facts. If Harassment of Security is a pressing issue and cannot be resolved locally, it can and should be sent to CC for further action as they deem necessary.

2. Increase the expectations of the Pod Pilot to include being considered the "Senior Patrol officer" of the shift. They can serve as a mentor to the rest of the department without flexing authority. Their role would then be to help those fledgling officers who are a greater risk to themselves then others. They are in no way obligated to baby sit but are encouraged to help quell problems regarding training.

3.  Implement everything Kyet went over except the Cadet idea. They're not going to be practical in our style of gameplay being so short and chaotic. If we're worried about people not being ready to be in security, then they shouldn't be in the role at all and the time requirements need to be higher then they currently are. As for the rest of the ideas, they're mostly going to take some coding and adjustment to the server as a whole so it will take some time to actually pull that one off.

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3 hours ago, Medi said:

I'm still advocating that we use the assets we have on hand to deal with the problem on the short hand while we wait for more code based solutions, as Kyet suggested, to become an actual thing.

 

1. Allow IAA / NT Rep (in cases of Command) / and the Magistrate to investigate and recommend action against Harassment of Security as a SOP violation with the possible penalties of: Increased time on a separate sentence, garnished wages, demotion, etc. These are to be treated on a case by case basis and supported with facts. If Harassment of Security is a pressing issue and cannot be resolved locally, it can and should be sent to CC for further action as they deem necessary.

If this is a procedure  that applies for everyone then I'd be fine with it, but /just/ security seems a little off, in my opinion, medical gets shit, science gets shit, service gets shit, supply gets shit, so why should security be special?

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2 hours ago, Fursamie said:

If this is a procedure  that applies for everyone then I'd be fine with it, but /just/ security seems a little off, in my opinion, medical gets shit, science gets shit, service gets shit, supply gets shit, so why should security be special?

because you wouldn't walk up to a police officer and give them shit would you?

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2 hours ago, Fursamie said:

If this is a procedure  that applies for everyone then I'd be fine with it, but /just/ security seems a little off, in my opinion, medical gets shit, science gets shit, service gets shit, supply gets shit, so why should security be special?

Because sec is who deals with the shitters and the antags of the round.

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2 hours ago, IntentEldiablo said:

because you wouldn't walk up to a police officer and give them shit would you?

I understand that point of view but you just cannot apply it to paradise as a server. I could, as an assistant, break into science, and start working on toxins or xenobiology (mind you extremely dangerous research if put in the wrong hands both IC and OOC) and very few people would care(Source : Have done this before several times). The same goes for employees calling heads of staff curses and the like - if your boss did something stupid, you wouldn't call him a walking, talking pit of human feces, would you? No, but because of how roleplay is enforced here, you may on paradise - sometimes, with no IC repercussions(however a warning / ban may be coming your way if it isn't entirely IC).

2 hours ago, Gaty said:

Because sec is who deals with the shitters and the antags of the round.

As well as every other department. I've seen shaft miners throw hissy fits when scientists aren't always at RnD regardless if it's completed or not, and I've seen scientists curse out miners for not getting all / a majority of the minerals 15 minutes in the round. Shitters are everywhere, and antags are naturally drawn to departments like atmospherics (technically engineering), science, and security for either the possible mayhem or gear that can generate from these departments. Some others like supply and service don't experience it too much, however if you've ever played QM or Bartender, you will be able to recall a story when after leaving unattended for less than a minute, you come back to find everyone's partying in your backroom / supply office.

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The frequency by which a person harasses a department is disproportionately leaning towards security. Yes, people will shit talk between departments but rarely if ever does this effect employment. We dont have a shortage of miners, scientists, qm, or bartenders. We do, however, have an increasing number of shifts where 1 security officer will be the only person at round start. It's been so bad that the shortage makes the round painful as there is no one to check the antags or tiders, thus they have free reign which ends the shift early. 

When other departments are THAT bad because of the culture, we can address that. Till then, the only real department hurting right now to really need this sort of SOP help is security. Now, I am not against expanding it to other departments but the severity and priority of focus is with security for a good reason.

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11 hours ago, Fursamie said:

understand that point of view but you just cannot apply it to paradise as a server. I could, as an assistant, break into science, and start working on toxins or xenobiology (mind you extremely dangerous research if put in the wrong hands both IC and OOC) and very few people would care(Source : Have done this before several times). The same goes for employees calling heads of staff curses and the like - if your boss did something stupid, you wouldn't call him a walking, talking pit of human feces, would you? No, but because of how roleplay is enforced here, you may on paradise - sometimes, with no IC repercussions(however a warning / ban may be coming your way if it isn't entirely IC).

1)  A ton of our game modes feature security heavily, yet they are frequently under/not staffed.  Inexperienced security players have a massive effect on the round.  Hence we have a actually need to fix the causes of the staffing issues.
2)  When Tide breaks into science and needs to be removed, who gets called?  Science is not usually the place people go to harass because its a slow shift.  Security has to deal with antags, people harassing them, and people harassing other departments.

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